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I would agree with what I'm saying, because what you are saying is simply not true. While not everyone in the strike remained peaceful, Debs himself was very f

I would agree with what I'm saying, because what you are saying is simply not true. While not everyone in the strike remained peaceful, Debs himself was very firmly a believer in peaceful protest. From the link you posted, Debs said: > Strong men and broad minds only can resist the plutocracy and arrogant monopoly. Do not be frightened at troops, injunctions, or a subsidized press. Quit and remain firm. Commit no violence. American Railway Union will protect all, whether member or not when strike is off. Emphasis mine. Also notable, none of the things Debs was charged with were violent crimes. Don't link things that don't support your point as if they do. At best that means you didn't read it, and at worst you're being intentionally dishonest.

deleted 3y ago
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somenameforme 3y ago
Try to find a single incorrect or false statement I made - you will not. You are doing precisely what you claimed to want to critique others for - you are rejecting the facts to try to turn Debs into whatever you want him to be. Debs lead strikes which turned into riots, resulting in massive property damage and numerous deaths, multiple times. This is a fact. You trying to spin him into being some sort of dedicated believer in peaceful protest is your opinion, and a poorly supported one at that. That's not to say you can't hold that opinion - you can believe whatever you want. But what you can't (or at least shouldn't) do is reject the facts around the past, which is what you are also doing.
- kerkeslager 3y ago
  > You are doing precisely what you claimed to want to critique others for - you are rejecting the facts to try to turn Debs into whatever you want him to be. On the contrary, I embraced the facts which you linked--it's just that the facts which you linked don't say what you claim they do. I would encourage anyone reading this conversation to click the link somenameforme posted and see that in fact, the link says what I'm saying it does. > Debs lead strikes which turned into riots, resulting in massive property damage and numerous deaths, multiple times. Did Debs incite that violence? You can juxtapose him next to violence all you want, but that's not evidence that did anything to cause it. > This is a fact. You trying to spin him into being some sort of dedicated believer in peaceful protest is your opinion, and a poorly supported one at that. Well, we can agree to disagree about whether the quote you linked supports my opinion well or poorly. But I don't feel that I need to support my opinion better than I have, given your total absence of any support for your opinion. If you choose to post any evidence which actually supports your opinion I'll be happy to do more thorough research (and admit I'm wrong, if I am wrong). The fact is, Eugene Debs did write to the strikers, "Commit no violence." If you want to ignore that fact so you can pretend he's some sort of terrist, it might have been easier if you hadn't linked a page with that very quote in it. :)
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    I have stated facts, not opinions. Facts can be falsified, opinions cannot. If you list a single statement I've stated that is an opinion, or a false fact please do point it out. In any case, we're in a old thread buried deep, this chat is between just you, I, and bots. And once again I don't think you believe what you are saying. A simple example would be looping back to the original discussion - Trump. These were Trump's final Tweets (which were oddly enough censored, though can now be viewed plainly since Musk restored his account): --- - "I am asking everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the party of Law & Order - respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!" - "Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!" - During his speech prior to the riots he also said, "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard today." --- So is Trump now very firmly a believer in peaceful protest? Or is it now somehow different because it's somebody you have a negative view of saying such things, and not somebody you have a positive view of saying such things?
    - kerkeslager 3y ago
      > I have stated facts, not opinions. Facts can be falsified, opinions cannot. If you list a single statement I've stated that is an opinion, or a false fact please do point it out. You seem to be under the delusion that if you only state facts and never state your opinion, no one will notice that you're arguing for an opinion. Yes, you're doing a good job of stating a very small percentage of the facts which supports the opinion that Eugene Debs was a proponent of violence. You haven't explicitly stated that it is your opinion that Eugene Debs was a proponent of violence, but given you're only accepting facts that supports that opinion, I think it's pretty obvious what your opinion is. Whether you state your opinion or not, it's obvious that you have an opinion, and it's obvious what your opinion is. And I'm not even saying it's a bad thing that you have an opinion: I have an opinion too. Everyone has opinions. Bias is unavoidable. My only objection is that it's absurd that you're trying to present yourself as having no bias. > [Trump tweets encouraging peace] > So is Trump now very firmly a believer in peaceful protest? If those Tweets were the only things in evidence, I'd be happy to say that Trump is firmly a believer in peaceful protest. Those Tweets aren't the only things in evidence, though[1]. > Or is it now somehow different because it's somebody you have a negative view of saying such things, and not somebody you have a positive view of saying such things? It's somehow different because there's more evidence than just those tweets[1]. If there's more evidence that Debs was a proponent of violence, I'd be happy to consider it, but so far all you've presented is that he was proximal to violence. Believe it or not, I'm actually not 100% convinced that Trump was involved in the January 6 attacks--simply because I am aware there's a lot of evidence I haven't looked at. It hardly matters--there's plenty of other reasons to think he's a horrible human being--but I'd prefer not to form opinions when I know I haven't looked at most of the evidence. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/12/23/1145209559/jan-6-committee-final-report https://www.npr.org/2022/12/23/1145209559/jan-6-committee-fi...
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  OK, I just gave a few. AFAICT you've read one article, and you know nothing on the subject. > Try to find a single incorrect or false statement I made - you will not. I just did. He was never convicted of rioting, violence, or anything you're alleging.

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somenameforme 3y ago

Try to find a single incorrect or false statement I made - you will not. You are doing precisely what you claimed to want to critique others for - you are rejecting the facts to try to turn Debs into whatever you want him to be. Debs lead strikes which turned into riots, resulting in massive property damage and numerous deaths, multiple times. This is a fact. You trying to spin him into being some sort of dedicated believer in peaceful protest is your opinion, and a poorly supported one at that. That's not to say you can't hold that opinion - you can believe whatever you want. But what you can't (or at least shouldn't) do is reject the facts around the past, which is what you are also doing.

kerkeslager 3y ago
> You are doing precisely what you claimed to want to critique others for - you are rejecting the facts to try to turn Debs into whatever you want him to be. On the contrary, I embraced the facts which you linked--it's just that the facts which you linked don't say what you claim they do. I would encourage anyone reading this conversation to click the link somenameforme posted and see that in fact, the link says what I'm saying it does. > Debs lead strikes which turned into riots, resulting in massive property damage and numerous deaths, multiple times. Did Debs incite that violence? You can juxtapose him next to violence all you want, but that's not evidence that did anything to cause it. > This is a fact. You trying to spin him into being some sort of dedicated believer in peaceful protest is your opinion, and a poorly supported one at that. Well, we can agree to disagree about whether the quote you linked supports my opinion well or poorly. But I don't feel that I need to support my opinion better than I have, given your total absence of any support for your opinion. If you choose to post any evidence which actually supports your opinion I'll be happy to do more thorough research (and admit I'm wrong, if I am wrong). The fact is, Eugene Debs did write to the strikers, "Commit no violence." If you want to ignore that fact so you can pretend he's some sort of terrist, it might have been easier if you hadn't linked a page with that very quote in it. :)
- somenameforme 3y ago
  I have stated facts, not opinions. Facts can be falsified, opinions cannot. If you list a single statement I've stated that is an opinion, or a false fact please do point it out. In any case, we're in a old thread buried deep, this chat is between just you, I, and bots. And once again I don't think you believe what you are saying. A simple example would be looping back to the original discussion - Trump. These were Trump's final Tweets (which were oddly enough censored, though can now be viewed plainly since Musk restored his account): --- - "I am asking everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the party of Law & Order - respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!" - "Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!" - During his speech prior to the riots he also said, "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard today." --- So is Trump now very firmly a believer in peaceful protest? Or is it now somehow different because it's somebody you have a negative view of saying such things, and not somebody you have a positive view of saying such things?
  - kerkeslager 3y ago
    > I have stated facts, not opinions. Facts can be falsified, opinions cannot. If you list a single statement I've stated that is an opinion, or a false fact please do point it out. You seem to be under the delusion that if you only state facts and never state your opinion, no one will notice that you're arguing for an opinion. Yes, you're doing a good job of stating a very small percentage of the facts which supports the opinion that Eugene Debs was a proponent of violence. You haven't explicitly stated that it is your opinion that Eugene Debs was a proponent of violence, but given you're only accepting facts that supports that opinion, I think it's pretty obvious what your opinion is. Whether you state your opinion or not, it's obvious that you have an opinion, and it's obvious what your opinion is. And I'm not even saying it's a bad thing that you have an opinion: I have an opinion too. Everyone has opinions. Bias is unavoidable. My only objection is that it's absurd that you're trying to present yourself as having no bias. > [Trump tweets encouraging peace] > So is Trump now very firmly a believer in peaceful protest? If those Tweets were the only things in evidence, I'd be happy to say that Trump is firmly a believer in peaceful protest. Those Tweets aren't the only things in evidence, though[1]. > Or is it now somehow different because it's somebody you have a negative view of saying such things, and not somebody you have a positive view of saying such things? It's somehow different because there's more evidence than just those tweets[1]. If there's more evidence that Debs was a proponent of violence, I'd be happy to consider it, but so far all you've presented is that he was proximal to violence. Believe it or not, I'm actually not 100% convinced that Trump was involved in the January 6 attacks--simply because I am aware there's a lot of evidence I haven't looked at. It hardly matters--there's plenty of other reasons to think he's a horrible human being--but I'd prefer not to form opinions when I know I haven't looked at most of the evidence. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/12/23/1145209559/jan-6-committee-final-report https://www.npr.org/2022/12/23/1145209559/jan-6-committee-fi...
AlbertCory 3y ago
OK, I just gave a few. AFAICT you've read one article, and you know nothing on the subject. > Try to find a single incorrect or false statement I made - you will not. I just did. He was never convicted of rioting, violence, or anything you're alleging.