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Because innovation will likely decrease simultaneously with needing to support a far greater fraction of unproductive retirees. I also always wonder if folks w

Because innovation will likely decrease simultaneously with needing to support a far greater fraction of unproductive retirees. I also always wonder if folks with your view see no moral issue with humanity disappearing, or with mass population decline in any way other than fewer children being born.

hypeatei 3y ago
Why does innovation or humanity need to exist? I don't see an obvious point or reason to life at all; much less the "growth and innovation" needed for the economy.
- exoverito 3y ago
  If there is no innovation then standards of living will not improve, and the future will look bleak for many people. Nihilism is incredibly dangerous and desperate people often turn to totalitarian ideologies which promise meaning and purpose.
  - hypeatei 3y ago
    This assumes the current day isn't already bleak for many in our current system.
    - exoverito 3y ago
      I make no such assumption, only pointing out the obvious fact that a world of no innovation, declining living standards, and a dying population will only exacerbate bleakness. It's essentially the dystopian setting for Children of Men.
  - xnx 3y ago
    There's a lot to look forward to in a world where the natural environment isn't increasingly mined for resources and paved over. Planet Earth is an absolute Eden all we can think to do is convert all its natural wonders into materials and energy to make unsatisfying technological baubles.
    - exoverito 3y ago
      It's hard to enjoy the beauty of Earth if you're poor, destitute, and only see worsening economic prospects. Innovations like fusion and asteroid mining would arguably do far more to preserve the environment than degrowth. People generally don't accept declining standards of living lightly. The Germans turned to Hitler and Nazism after a decade of hyperinflation and economic depression. I also sense a certain level of hypocrisy to complain about technological baubles when you're on Hacker News. We all enjoy the benefits of modern technology in a myriad of ways like transportation, medicine, abundant food, fruit any time of year, etc.
  - mrtesthah 3y ago
    Modern humans existed for hundreds of thousands of years without any concept of "innovation". They lived in tribal formations with traditional economies and were able to satisfy their psychological/interpersonal needs[1] as well as most of their physical needs[2]. Far from nihilism, their worldviews[3] were imbued with deep spiritual and communal significance. 1. https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-06-18/the-blackfoot-wisdom-that-inspired-maslows-hierarchy/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-06-18/the-blackfoot-... 2. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/551018759/are-hunter-gatherers-the-happiest-humans-to-inhabit-earth https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/5510187... 3. https://www.mhyfvic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Aboriginal_spirituality_Aboriginal_philo.pdf https://www.mhyfvic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Aborigina...
    - exoverito 3y ago
      The guy I was responding to was literally a nihilist and didn't see the point in humanity persisting. While it may be true primitive tribes sometimes had satisfying lifestyles with relatively little wealth, we are far beyond the carrying capacity of hunter gatherer modalities, and modern people have the expectation that their lives will generally improve. If it becomes harder to save wealth, own a home, and start a family, then people will defect from the current system. It will be a serious risk factor for societal instability, as we can already observe.
      - mrtesthah 3y ago
        I don't see nihilism reflected in his comment. I see someone drawing attention to unstated assumptions embedded in our society about technological/social/civilizational progress. Unfortunately earth has basic physical limits that simply do not permit an indefinite growth-based social order. When wealth is produced by depleting non-renewable resources and destroying natural systems keeping the earth in balance, that wealth will inevitably lose its purpose. Choosing a social order that values human life and the wealth of the natural world is not nihilistic. Choosing a social order in which the natural world is destroyed to increase the number of 0s in a bank account is.
    - johnthewise 3y ago
- x3n0ph3n3 3y ago
  If that's how you feel, you can make progress with yourself.
  - ihsw 3y ago
    [dead]
itishappy 3y ago
What happened to "necessity is the mother of invention"? Another assumption here is that all jobs are critical, but I suspect a huge portion (the majority?) are pork.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  More people = more brain capacity to innovate. Capitalism has a way of fabricating necessity from thin air where none exists anyway, that's where those pork jobs come from.

hypeatei 3y ago

Why does innovation or humanity need to exist? I don't see an obvious point or reason to life at all; much less the "growth and innovation" needed for the economy.

exoverito 3y ago
If there is no innovation then standards of living will not improve, and the future will look bleak for many people. Nihilism is incredibly dangerous and desperate people often turn to totalitarian ideologies which promise meaning and purpose.
- hypeatei 3y ago
  This assumes the current day isn't already bleak for many in our current system.
  - exoverito 3y ago
    I make no such assumption, only pointing out the obvious fact that a world of no innovation, declining living standards, and a dying population will only exacerbate bleakness. It's essentially the dystopian setting for Children of Men.
- xnx 3y ago
  There's a lot to look forward to in a world where the natural environment isn't increasingly mined for resources and paved over. Planet Earth is an absolute Eden all we can think to do is convert all its natural wonders into materials and energy to make unsatisfying technological baubles.
  - exoverito 3y ago
    It's hard to enjoy the beauty of Earth if you're poor, destitute, and only see worsening economic prospects. Innovations like fusion and asteroid mining would arguably do far more to preserve the environment than degrowth. People generally don't accept declining standards of living lightly. The Germans turned to Hitler and Nazism after a decade of hyperinflation and economic depression. I also sense a certain level of hypocrisy to complain about technological baubles when you're on Hacker News. We all enjoy the benefits of modern technology in a myriad of ways like transportation, medicine, abundant food, fruit any time of year, etc.
- mrtesthah 3y ago
  Modern humans existed for hundreds of thousands of years without any concept of "innovation". They lived in tribal formations with traditional economies and were able to satisfy their psychological/interpersonal needs[1] as well as most of their physical needs[2]. Far from nihilism, their worldviews[3] were imbued with deep spiritual and communal significance. 1. https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-06-18/the-blackfoot-wisdom-that-inspired-maslows-hierarchy/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-06-18/the-blackfoot-... 2. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/551018759/are-hunter-gatherers-the-happiest-humans-to-inhabit-earth https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/5510187... 3. https://www.mhyfvic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Aboriginal_spirituality_Aboriginal_philo.pdf https://www.mhyfvic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Aborigina...
  - exoverito 3y ago
    The guy I was responding to was literally a nihilist and didn't see the point in humanity persisting. While it may be true primitive tribes sometimes had satisfying lifestyles with relatively little wealth, we are far beyond the carrying capacity of hunter gatherer modalities, and modern people have the expectation that their lives will generally improve. If it becomes harder to save wealth, own a home, and start a family, then people will defect from the current system. It will be a serious risk factor for societal instability, as we can already observe.
    - mrtesthah 3y ago
      I don't see nihilism reflected in his comment. I see someone drawing attention to unstated assumptions embedded in our society about technological/social/civilizational progress. Unfortunately earth has basic physical limits that simply do not permit an indefinite growth-based social order. When wealth is produced by depleting non-renewable resources and destroying natural systems keeping the earth in balance, that wealth will inevitably lose its purpose. Choosing a social order that values human life and the wealth of the natural world is not nihilistic. Choosing a social order in which the natural world is destroyed to increase the number of 0s in a bank account is.
  - johnthewise 3y ago
x3n0ph3n3 3y ago
If that's how you feel, you can make progress with yourself.
- ihsw 3y ago
  [dead]

itishappy 3y ago

What happened to "necessity is the mother of invention"? Another assumption here is that all jobs are critical, but I suspect a huge portion (the majority?) are pork.

moffkalast 3y ago
More people = more brain capacity to innovate. Capitalism has a way of fabricating necessity from thin air where none exists anyway, that's where those pork jobs come from.