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I think in ~5 years, after all of the fine details shake out and 3rd party app stores are common across the globe, it will be very exciting to be an indie iOS d

I think in ~5 years, after all of the fine details shake out and 3rd party app stores are common across the globe, it will be very exciting to be an indie iOS developer. Open source or demo or hobby apps really don't exist on iOS because the barrier to usage is too high (dev must upload to App Store, or user must compile from source / get an .IPA & sign w/ an Apple Developer Certificate, or convoluted sideloading techniques must be used). Native terminals & package managers & IDEs... the iPad could turn into an amazing development machine, despite Apple's best efforts to the contrary.

drewg123 3y ago
Is the virtualization framework available on iOS/iPad? That would make the iPad into a killer dev platform if so.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  No, but Apple could enable it in like 10 seconds if they so chose.
cglong 3y ago
It's going to be interesting watching Apple's strategy unfold over the next few years. If third party stores prove wildly popular in the EU, then what? If people worldwide start demanding parity, how will Apple respond? Will they oblige or dig their heels further into the sand?
- tiltowait 3y ago
  Given Apple’s recent history, I’m betting dig in their heels—which I think is a bad strategy, so I hope I’m wrong. They’ve brought this regulation on themselves with their unnecessarily ham-handed actions. People—even big Apple fans—have been calling it for years. It’s been frustrating to see so many unforced errors.
  - lancesells 3y ago
    Dig in their heels and watch other parts of the business get even more agressive. More ads in iOS settings and the App Store. More notifications for their products and ecosystem. I can see it in them making the TV app the only way to watch your media. Now I'm subject to their TV+ advertisements whenever I want to watch my iTunes purchases. I can look up a comedy show in their store and the "related" shows are TV+ before everything else. It's like they're hiring from Amazon Prime TV or something. I honestly don't update my tvOS because it seems to be gets worse in content and having strange UX choices.
- thejohnconway 3y ago
  I hope they give up on the App Store as a significant income stream. It's a terrible strategy tax, and pretty gross and un-apple-like (the old Apple anyway). Everything is "free" except for predatory in-app purchases, so you can't tell how much anything really costs. It's full of gambling type games that kids play. The apps at the top of searches are often just garbage, and the truly capable apps are very few and far between, or don't exist because of sandboxing. What I want from apple if they are going to have an App Store is a curated collection of Apps that are good, and aren't scummy, and yes, often expensive. You can chose to use it or not, but if you want the best app, go there.
- quitit 3y ago
  Just a few thoughts: 1. Are 3rd party stores popular on Android? How about preinstalled vendor-run stores such as the Samsung Galaxy Store? 2. Small developers are the primary beneficiary of unified stores. On the desktop Steam is a good example of that, while large developers can afford the costs of generating direct sales via ATL marketing and support, small developers largely rely on in-store discovery/visibility to reach a larger audience. 3. However a Steam-like store hasn't eventuated on Android likely because Google's store is already good enough. Steam largely benefits from being early and maintains that position despite the numerous copycat stores having compelling offers (e.g. the Epic store is largely a dud despite regularly giving away popular gaming titles.) 4. If the final legislated position for Apple's App Store is simply to be a Steam-esque add-on store, i.e. merely a place of convenience but not at all necessary, Apple will no longer be beholden to accomodating hostile competitors. 5. The EU is still discovering how they can balance strict control versus existing commercial freedoms, and we're about to see this play out with Facebook. Since the EU has suggested that Facebook cannot charge for an Ad-free tier. Which has a few obvious run on implications, i.e. that a company cannot set the price of their own product and ad-supported "free" services (such as Google, etc.) are not in compliance. 6. Don't expect any of the "gatekeepers" to self-regulate their actions, because they can't read the mind of the EU. Instead they'll now sit and wait to be told what to do. All of these thoughts obviously point in different directions, but there are some themes that apply to all of them. 1. Large software developers are pushing for independent stores because it benefits them, and protects them from disruption from emergent competitors. 2. Small developers will still need to rely on hive/halo visibility (i.e. Steam, Google Play, Apple App Store). Even though this costs them more than direct sales. 3. Either Apple has no control and thus no responsibility, or they have full control and can wield that against hostile competitors. There is no scenario where Apple has no control and full responsibility. 4. People don't like that last point, and that mental disconnect is on display - but that's where all of this takes us. It's a case of careful what you wish for.
  - cglong 3y ago
    Remember the DMA is also targeting Google. I find it interesting that Epic didn't even bother with an Android store until now.
dagmx 3y ago
All the things you listed aren’t blocked by the App Store. They’re system level restrictions based on the security model (whether or not one agrees with them) Today you can already find terminals and IDEs in the App Store beholden to those restrictions.
- lukeschlather 3y ago
  The DMA also prohibits companies from placing restrictions on third-party apps that don't apply to their own apps. So if any first-party Apple apps can ignore these "security restrictions" then Apple may have some compliance issues that force them to remove the restrictions.
  - theluketaylor 3y ago
    But the DMA also requires (not just allows) platform owners to maintain the security of their platform. Many of the security model restrictions for iOS that app developers bump into are unlikely to be lifted by Apple. Most of the places Apple has given themselves special powers is mostly a shortcut to avoid the hard work of a publicly accessible API and entitlements. Not always, sometimes it really is them favouring themselves, but I'd say that's the exception rather than a rule. I'm guessing Apple will mostly do the legwork to create entitlements and APIs and transition the Apple apps rather than actually remove the restriction. This will result in some types of apps that are currently not allowed being possible, but I think it's going to be a lot fewer use cases than people think. For example, I don't see side loaded NES emulators being allowed to have a JIT.
    - cglong 3y ago
      > For example, I don't see side loaded NES emulators being allowed to have a JIT. Why not? If third-party browsers are allowed to have a JIT, why couldn't an emulator?
      - theluketaylor 3y ago
        Apple has a slam dunk case to place a ton of barriers on browser vendors being allowed to JIT code due to the risk to the rest of the platform and the user's data. Little emulators for NES and Sega Genesis are not going to meet those barriers and Apple will have a pretty easy time excluding them under the security provision. Dev environments like VS Code will be more interesting. I suspect Apple will choose to build a VM layer to execute complied code inside an even deeper sandbox rather than allowing execution directly inside the iOS layer, thereby severely limiting what a binary complied on device is able to interact with. This would almost certainly be hidden behind an entitlement that Apple will be try to be allowed to gatekeep under the DMA requirement to maintain platform security.
oorza 3y ago
I haven't thought much about this, but given the historic failure of alternative app stores to gain traction in Android, what makes you think this will change? Hardly anyone I know outside of tech circles (and some within them) are even aware that alternative web browsers are an option for their phone, let alone alternative app stores. I think best case is sites like itch.io and Patreon have dedicated app stores that funnel more money to creators and it's easy enough to manage having multiple active app sources on your phone, but they will always have a very small niche market compared to Apple or Google. Even Amazon hasn't been able to eat away at the defaults' market share. The most viable path I can see to getting alternative app stores as a common scenario and user expectation is basically just... Steam. But mobile gaming is such a flaming shit show, I don't know if that will ever happen. Something like Steam getting traction on smartphones would absolutely help change that problem though.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
> Open source or demo or hobby apps really don't exist on iOS because the barrier to usage is too high Every credible developer I’ve talked to is not hung up on item 1,000 of 10,000 they have to do to develop software. Steam also has a lot of requirements. The issue is the store is shit, discoverability is the worst of any platform. Steam is great for discoverability. Indie developers can thrive if the stores are better designed.
traverseda 3y ago
This might actually drag me into the apple ecosystem. It's a nice ecosystem, it's largely POSIX compliant, but to get the most out of it you should be using IOS devices, and that's just too locked down for me.

drewg123 3y ago

Is the virtualization framework available on iOS/iPad? That would make the iPad into a killer dev platform if so.

kmeisthax 3y ago
No, but Apple could enable it in like 10 seconds if they so chose.

cglong 3y ago

It's going to be interesting watching Apple's strategy unfold over the next few years. If third party stores prove wildly popular in the EU, then what? If people worldwide start demanding parity, how will Apple respond? Will they oblige or dig their heels further into the sand?

tiltowait 3y ago
Given Apple’s recent history, I’m betting dig in their heels—which I think is a bad strategy, so I hope I’m wrong. They’ve brought this regulation on themselves with their unnecessarily ham-handed actions. People—even big Apple fans—have been calling it for years. It’s been frustrating to see so many unforced errors.
- lancesells 3y ago
  Dig in their heels and watch other parts of the business get even more agressive. More ads in iOS settings and the App Store. More notifications for their products and ecosystem. I can see it in them making the TV app the only way to watch your media. Now I'm subject to their TV+ advertisements whenever I want to watch my iTunes purchases. I can look up a comedy show in their store and the "related" shows are TV+ before everything else. It's like they're hiring from Amazon Prime TV or something. I honestly don't update my tvOS because it seems to be gets worse in content and having strange UX choices.
thejohnconway 3y ago
I hope they give up on the App Store as a significant income stream. It's a terrible strategy tax, and pretty gross and un-apple-like (the old Apple anyway). Everything is "free" except for predatory in-app purchases, so you can't tell how much anything really costs. It's full of gambling type games that kids play. The apps at the top of searches are often just garbage, and the truly capable apps are very few and far between, or don't exist because of sandboxing. What I want from apple if they are going to have an App Store is a curated collection of Apps that are good, and aren't scummy, and yes, often expensive. You can chose to use it or not, but if you want the best app, go there.
quitit 3y ago
Just a few thoughts: 1. Are 3rd party stores popular on Android? How about preinstalled vendor-run stores such as the Samsung Galaxy Store? 2. Small developers are the primary beneficiary of unified stores. On the desktop Steam is a good example of that, while large developers can afford the costs of generating direct sales via ATL marketing and support, small developers largely rely on in-store discovery/visibility to reach a larger audience. 3. However a Steam-like store hasn't eventuated on Android likely because Google's store is already good enough. Steam largely benefits from being early and maintains that position despite the numerous copycat stores having compelling offers (e.g. the Epic store is largely a dud despite regularly giving away popular gaming titles.) 4. If the final legislated position for Apple's App Store is simply to be a Steam-esque add-on store, i.e. merely a place of convenience but not at all necessary, Apple will no longer be beholden to accomodating hostile competitors. 5. The EU is still discovering how they can balance strict control versus existing commercial freedoms, and we're about to see this play out with Facebook. Since the EU has suggested that Facebook cannot charge for an Ad-free tier. Which has a few obvious run on implications, i.e. that a company cannot set the price of their own product and ad-supported "free" services (such as Google, etc.) are not in compliance. 6. Don't expect any of the "gatekeepers" to self-regulate their actions, because they can't read the mind of the EU. Instead they'll now sit and wait to be told what to do. All of these thoughts obviously point in different directions, but there are some themes that apply to all of them. 1. Large software developers are pushing for independent stores because it benefits them, and protects them from disruption from emergent competitors. 2. Small developers will still need to rely on hive/halo visibility (i.e. Steam, Google Play, Apple App Store). Even though this costs them more than direct sales. 3. Either Apple has no control and thus no responsibility, or they have full control and can wield that against hostile competitors. There is no scenario where Apple has no control and full responsibility. 4. People don't like that last point, and that mental disconnect is on display - but that's where all of this takes us. It's a case of careful what you wish for.
- cglong 3y ago
  Remember the DMA is also targeting Google. I find it interesting that Epic didn't even bother with an Android store until now.

dagmx 3y ago

All the things you listed aren’t blocked by the App Store. They’re system level restrictions based on the security model (whether or not one agrees with them) Today you can already find terminals and IDEs in the App Store beholden to those restrictions.

lukeschlather 3y ago
The DMA also prohibits companies from placing restrictions on third-party apps that don't apply to their own apps. So if any first-party Apple apps can ignore these "security restrictions" then Apple may have some compliance issues that force them to remove the restrictions.
- theluketaylor 3y ago
  But the DMA also requires (not just allows) platform owners to maintain the security of their platform. Many of the security model restrictions for iOS that app developers bump into are unlikely to be lifted by Apple. Most of the places Apple has given themselves special powers is mostly a shortcut to avoid the hard work of a publicly accessible API and entitlements. Not always, sometimes it really is them favouring themselves, but I'd say that's the exception rather than a rule. I'm guessing Apple will mostly do the legwork to create entitlements and APIs and transition the Apple apps rather than actually remove the restriction. This will result in some types of apps that are currently not allowed being possible, but I think it's going to be a lot fewer use cases than people think. For example, I don't see side loaded NES emulators being allowed to have a JIT.
  - cglong 3y ago
    > For example, I don't see side loaded NES emulators being allowed to have a JIT. Why not? If third-party browsers are allowed to have a JIT, why couldn't an emulator?
    - theluketaylor 3y ago
      Apple has a slam dunk case to place a ton of barriers on browser vendors being allowed to JIT code due to the risk to the rest of the platform and the user's data. Little emulators for NES and Sega Genesis are not going to meet those barriers and Apple will have a pretty easy time excluding them under the security provision. Dev environments like VS Code will be more interesting. I suspect Apple will choose to build a VM layer to execute complied code inside an even deeper sandbox rather than allowing execution directly inside the iOS layer, thereby severely limiting what a binary complied on device is able to interact with. This would almost certainly be hidden behind an entitlement that Apple will be try to be allowed to gatekeep under the DMA requirement to maintain platform security.

oorza 3y ago

I haven't thought much about this, but given the historic failure of alternative app stores to gain traction in Android, what makes you think this will change? Hardly anyone I know outside of tech circles (and some within them) are even aware that alternative web browsers are an option for their phone, let alone alternative app stores. I think best case is sites like itch.io and Patreon have dedicated app stores that funnel more money to creators and it's easy enough to manage having multiple active app sources on your phone, but they will always have a very small niche market compared to Apple or Google. Even Amazon hasn't been able to eat away at the defaults' market share. The most viable path I can see to getting alternative app stores as a common scenario and user expectation is basically just... Steam. But mobile gaming is such a flaming shit show, I don't know if that will ever happen. Something like Steam getting traction on smartphones would absolutely help change that problem though.

doctorpangloss 3y ago

> Open source or demo or hobby apps really don't exist on iOS because the barrier to usage is too high Every credible developer I’ve talked to is not hung up on item 1,000 of 10,000 they have to do to develop software. Steam also has a lot of requirements. The issue is the store is shit, discoverability is the worst of any platform. Steam is great for discoverability. Indie developers can thrive if the stores are better designed.

traverseda 3y ago

This might actually drag me into the apple ecosystem. It's a nice ecosystem, it's largely POSIX compliant, but to get the most out of it you should be using IOS devices, and that's just too locked down for me.