4 ms·

There are ways of structuring entities to avoid relocating 'physical labs'. The big tech companies have excellent legal and accounting departments that consist

There are ways of structuring entities to avoid relocating 'physical labs'. The big tech companies have excellent legal and accounting departments that consistently beat the USA and EU in tax optimisation through IP relocation, and many of those same principles could be applied to AI. e.g - A model could be trained in the the USA then privately donated to a non-Profit in the Seychelles (or some friendly jurisdiction) where it could be published. If regulators clamp down on basic sharing, the model could be pre trained in the USA and fine tuned in the Seychelles before release. If regulators clamp down on intermediate sharing, the model could be designed in the USA but full training could occur in the Seychelles. If regulators clamp down on offshore training by denying the Seychelles access to GPU purchases, American entities could donate the physical GPUs.

ben_w 3y ago
> The big tech companies have excellent legal and accounting departments that consistently beat the USA and EU in tax optimisation through IP relocation, and many of those same principles could be applied to AI. This tax optimisation has resulted in lawsuits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute … and this kind of attitude is also why GDPR fines are based on global revenue rather than EU revenue (because it's too easy to play a shell game with money). Also note that laws can reach across borders, for example: • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_Stat... • That the US government wants to know about all use of cryptography in apps distributed on the Apple App Store, even when it's made by a German corporation for German users in Germany and is never localised to English. > If regulators clamp down on offshore training by denying the Seychelles access to GPU purchases, American entities could donate the physical GPUs. Hence "Track all GPUs sold. If intelligence says that a country outside the agreement is building a GPU cluster, be less scared of a shooting conflict between nations than of the moratorium being violated; be willing to destroy a rogue datacenter by airstrike." - https://time.com/6266923/ai-eliezer-yudkowsky-open-letter-not-enough/ https://time.com/6266923/ai-eliezer-yudkowsky-open-letter-no... You may consider this "overkill" — I sure do, but (and with acknowledgement that fiction is not a guide to reality) I also read Schlock Mercenary back in the day: > There is no "overkill." There is only "open fire" and "reload."
- spacebanana7 3y ago
  > This tax optimisation has resulted in lawsuits... The tax battles are ongoing, but the fact that big tech still uses offshore structures indicates they're still getting from value out of them. > Hence "Track all GPUs sold. It keeps going with the second hand GPU market or IaaS providers. As a reference point, Western sanctions have largely failed to prevent Russia and Iran from acquiring semiconductors for drones. > rogue datacenter by airstrike In the tax battles, the biggest obstacles were generally internal to the G20. Delaware didn't want to give out ownership information about companies, divided congresses refused to pass min tax laws for years at a time, the Brits didn't want to force Cayman etc to have public registries of trusts, and Ireland undermined any collective effort by Europe.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > As a reference point, Western sanctions have largely failed to prevent Russia and Iran from acquiring semiconductors for drones. Drones don't need anything like the same quantity or performance of parts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Simpson_(blogger) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Simpson_(blogger) > In the tax battles, the biggest obstacles were generally internal to the G20. And the biggest limitation to the International Criminal Court is big players who refuse to cooperate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... And the biggest thing preventing China from invading Taiwan — often discussed as if it's more substantial than a potential intervention of US armed forces — is the potential for TSMC to be destroyed during the attempt.
  - skissane 3y ago
    > As a reference point, Western sanctions have largely failed to prevent Russia and Iran from acquiring semiconductors for drones I’ve heard stories about whole businesses based in the Gulf states dedicated to helping countries like Iran get around US sanctions - stuff is ordered to go to country X, then as soon as it gets there, taken out of the box, put in a different box, and sent to country Y. If the US government knows it is happening they will halt the delivery, but they can’t always distinguish between legitimate shipments to country X and diverted ones. If I order 5 racks of servers, install 4 of them in my data center in Dubai, and load the fifth on to a flight to Tehran, how will the Americans ever know?

ben_w 3y ago

> The big tech companies have excellent legal and accounting departments that consistently beat the USA and EU in tax optimisation through IP relocation, and many of those same principles could be applied to AI. This tax optimisation has resulted in lawsuits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute … and this kind of attitude is also why GDPR fines are based on global revenue rather than EU revenue (because it's too easy to play a shell game with money). Also note that laws can reach across borders, for example: • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_Stat... • That the US government wants to know about all use of cryptography in apps distributed on the Apple App Store, even when it's made by a German corporation for German users in Germany and is never localised to English. > If regulators clamp down on offshore training by denying the Seychelles access to GPU purchases, American entities could donate the physical GPUs. Hence "Track all GPUs sold. If intelligence says that a country outside the agreement is building a GPU cluster, be less scared of a shooting conflict between nations than of the moratorium being violated; be willing to destroy a rogue datacenter by airstrike." - https://time.com/6266923/ai-eliezer-yudkowsky-open-letter-not-enough/ https://time.com/6266923/ai-eliezer-yudkowsky-open-letter-no... You may consider this "overkill" — I sure do, but (and with acknowledgement that fiction is not a guide to reality) I also read Schlock Mercenary back in the day: > There is no "overkill." There is only "open fire" and "reload."

spacebanana7 3y ago
> This tax optimisation has resulted in lawsuits... The tax battles are ongoing, but the fact that big tech still uses offshore structures indicates they're still getting from value out of them. > Hence "Track all GPUs sold. It keeps going with the second hand GPU market or IaaS providers. As a reference point, Western sanctions have largely failed to prevent Russia and Iran from acquiring semiconductors for drones. > rogue datacenter by airstrike In the tax battles, the biggest obstacles were generally internal to the G20. Delaware didn't want to give out ownership information about companies, divided congresses refused to pass min tax laws for years at a time, the Brits didn't want to force Cayman etc to have public registries of trusts, and Ireland undermined any collective effort by Europe.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > As a reference point, Western sanctions have largely failed to prevent Russia and Iran from acquiring semiconductors for drones. Drones don't need anything like the same quantity or performance of parts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Simpson_(blogger) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Simpson_(blogger) > In the tax battles, the biggest obstacles were generally internal to the G20. And the biggest limitation to the International Criminal Court is big players who refuse to cooperate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... And the biggest thing preventing China from invading Taiwan — often discussed as if it's more substantial than a potential intervention of US armed forces — is the potential for TSMC to be destroyed during the attempt.
- skissane 3y ago
  > As a reference point, Western sanctions have largely failed to prevent Russia and Iran from acquiring semiconductors for drones I’ve heard stories about whole businesses based in the Gulf states dedicated to helping countries like Iran get around US sanctions - stuff is ordered to go to country X, then as soon as it gets there, taken out of the box, put in a different box, and sent to country Y. If the US government knows it is happening they will halt the delivery, but they can’t always distinguish between legitimate shipments to country X and diverted ones. If I order 5 racks of servers, install 4 of them in my data center in Dubai, and load the fifth on to a flight to Tehran, how will the Americans ever know?