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I think is that modern languages like Go and Rust (there are for sure others, but I don't have experience with any other language that ships with all the tools)

I think is that modern languages like Go and Rust (there are for sure others, but I don't have experience with any other language that ships with all the tools) ship with all the tools you need, formatter, linter, test runner, etc, Go goes even further than Rust and ships a very complete std focused on web and Javascript is used primarily in web, so it makes sense that ships with all the libraries needed to build a web server, also websocket is a standard, so it's easy to implement it and make it work with the browser. Nowadays if you start a new Javascript project you need to setup, vite/esbuild/webpack, eslint/oxlint/biome, prettier, typescript, etc, that is a ton of dependencies that YOU need to maintain for years, and if it is part of the tool you are using, then you don't, ideally there shouldn't be a breaking change, let's see how bun manages that when the time comes. I am waiting for bun or a tool that has everything I need to bundle my frontend app, I'm very tired of fiddling with all the dependencies and try to make to work every dependency together, I have a legacy project that I work on, I would have migrated a long time ago to another tool, but there is none that would fix the current issue and it's managing the project build, test, formatter, lint dependencies, after using Rust I feel super frustrated with the Javascript ecosystem state. Also you asked why? I want to work on the project, there is already a lot of work to maintain the dependencies up to date, the tooling should not be part of that work.

CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
> Nowadays if you start a new Javascript project you need to setup, vite/esbuild/webpack, eslint/oxlint/biome, prettier, typescript, etc, that is a ton of dependencies that YOU need to maintain for years That's a choice YOU make, not everyone makes that choice, especially because they want to be able to continue working on a project for months/years without accruing automatic technical debt as all those projects move forward without actually thinking about backwards compatibility.
- noahtallen 3y ago
  Right, but that’s why languages like Rust have an excellent DX. There is no complex choice about what linter, formatter, test runner, doc builder, or package manager to use. These at all such common requirements for building software at scale with lots of contributors that the language tooling just includes them. It’s not hard to maintain, because the language toolchain is so foundational it needs to be stable. JS doesn’t have anything like that, which is why projects like Deno, Bun, Biome, etc are interesting. These projects explore how JS can also get a great out of the box experience without requiring the complex setup and maintenance steps that so many existing tools require. Besides, professionally, you normally don’t make the choice in a vacuum. Linters, package managers, testing, bundling/building, type safety, and even formatting are all very useful in big projects with lots of people. So you often don’t get to say “ah we just won’t have unit tests because jest doesn’t care enough about backwards compatibility.”
gregoriol 3y ago
No one likes to set up or update things. But when everything is coupled (why not even include a framework in Bun?), you are even more dependent on choices made by them and will be forced to upgrade no matter what. For example, if they decide that their implementation of the test component wasn't good enough in version X and they completely reimplement it in version X+1, you will have to upgrade your code, but maybe at that point you don't want to rewrite all your test suites, you just want to get the new http3 request handler, but you still must rewrite all your test suites... When things are not that coupled, independent components you bring together, you can update the webserver, and/or some components, and keep the old version of the test library for now, until you decide it's time to upgrade.
- deleted 3y ago
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- erhaetherth 3y ago
  Languagy type things tend to be more stable than the myriad of random npm packages out there. Hopefully Bun remains pretty stable. I'm currently fighting PHP + Laravel. I want to upgrade PHP but I can't because the version of Laravel I'm using depends on an older version of PHP. So I have to upgrade them both in lockstep anyway.

CaptainOfCoit 3y ago

> Nowadays if you start a new Javascript project you need to setup, vite/esbuild/webpack, eslint/oxlint/biome, prettier, typescript, etc, that is a ton of dependencies that YOU need to maintain for years That's a choice YOU make, not everyone makes that choice, especially because they want to be able to continue working on a project for months/years without accruing automatic technical debt as all those projects move forward without actually thinking about backwards compatibility.

noahtallen 3y ago
Right, but that’s why languages like Rust have an excellent DX. There is no complex choice about what linter, formatter, test runner, doc builder, or package manager to use. These at all such common requirements for building software at scale with lots of contributors that the language tooling just includes them. It’s not hard to maintain, because the language toolchain is so foundational it needs to be stable. JS doesn’t have anything like that, which is why projects like Deno, Bun, Biome, etc are interesting. These projects explore how JS can also get a great out of the box experience without requiring the complex setup and maintenance steps that so many existing tools require. Besides, professionally, you normally don’t make the choice in a vacuum. Linters, package managers, testing, bundling/building, type safety, and even formatting are all very useful in big projects with lots of people. So you often don’t get to say “ah we just won’t have unit tests because jest doesn’t care enough about backwards compatibility.”

gregoriol 3y ago

No one likes to set up or update things. But when everything is coupled (why not even include a framework in Bun?), you are even more dependent on choices made by them and will be forced to upgrade no matter what. For example, if they decide that their implementation of the test component wasn't good enough in version X and they completely reimplement it in version X+1, you will have to upgrade your code, but maybe at that point you don't want to rewrite all your test suites, you just want to get the new http3 request handler, but you still must rewrite all your test suites... When things are not that coupled, independent components you bring together, you can update the webserver, and/or some components, and keep the old version of the test library for now, until you decide it's time to upgrade.

deleted 3y ago
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erhaetherth 3y ago
Languagy type things tend to be more stable than the myriad of random npm packages out there. Hopefully Bun remains pretty stable. I'm currently fighting PHP + Laravel. I want to upgrade PHP but I can't because the version of Laravel I'm using depends on an older version of PHP. So I have to upgrade them both in lockstep anyway.