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I'm surprised people who grew up with technology didn't learn from their own experience as a kid that censorware doesn't work and kids will always find a way to

I'm surprised people who grew up with technology didn't learn from their own experience as a kid that censorware doesn't work and kids will always find a way to circumvent it if they want to. The best you can do to protect kids online is to teach them the importance of online anonymity, why ad blocking is essential and how to avoid infecting a computer with malware. Also, the internet is currently being scapegoated by the media for the teen mental health crisis but this is only happening in the US and other countries also have teens with internet access. Just like school shootings, this problem is being blamed on scapegoats because the real causes of the problem are politically untouchable and want to deflect the blame on anything else to stay that way. The moral panic over teens and social media is really just the "Grand Theft Auto is turning kids into murderers" of this generation.

Syonyk 3y ago
> Also, the internet is currently being scapegoated by the media for the teen mental health crisis but this is only happening in the US and other countries also have teens with internet access. [Citation needed] The teenage mental health crisis is across a wide range of countries, all starting roughly with the smartphone. Here's one discussion on Nordic countries that demonstrates a rise in teen mental health issues at exactly the same time we saw in the US: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/international-mental-illness-part-two https://www.afterbabel.com/p/international-mental-illness-pa... - and the data for various other European and Asian nations all looks about the same. Of course, if you've started with the conclusion that smartphones and social media can't possibly be the problem, you'll be able to deflect anything away from that particular cause.
- csnover 3y ago
  > Of course, if you've started with the conclusion that smartphones and social media can't possibly be the problem, you'll be able to deflect anything away from that particular cause. Similarly, starting with the conclusion that smartphones and social media must be the problem, you’ll deflect away from a lot of contradictory evidence that suggest a more complex interplay between other societal issues, and that smartphones/social media are—if anything—likely just illuminating and amplifying known and pre-existing root causes of poor mental health in young people: poverty, trauma, discrimination, and pressure to excel[0]. Literature reviews of social media and smartphone use show “conflicting small positive, negative and null associations” and “do not offer a way of distinguishing cause from effect”[1]. Some hypothesised alternative causes of increases in depressive and anxiety symptoms with some stronger effect sizes include: increases in online bullying, decreases in sleep, long-term effects of the Great Recession (and, by extension, the European debt crisis), biological changes[2], restrictions on independent activity[3], and climate change[4]. Even before the invention of the smartphone, psychopathologies in young Americans had increased by a full standard deviation[5] over the previous 70 years. The number of teens that report extremely high levels of stress doubles during the school year[6], yet there is little blame currently being cast in that direction, despite it being the overwhelmingly largest self-reported source of stress at 83%. Claiming causation from such weak evidence is not merely foolish, it’s potentially quite dangerous. Despite the parent commenter’s incorrect claim that this is purely an American issue, they are almost certainly correct that smartphones and social media are currently being used as scapegoats so society can avoid confronting and addressing the deeply entrenched and deeply uncomfortable root causes of harm. I think this can be seen, at least in part, in the casual discarding of evidence that—especially for marginalised groups[7]—access to online spaces can be protective to young peoples’ mental health. Trying to avoid discussing the root problems is bad enough on its own, since it means they will not be fixed, but the proposed solution of using restrictive mediation—that is, shielding young people from harm rather than educating them—is almost certainly worse than doing nothing at all[8]. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31697105/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31697105/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8221420/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8221420/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7015269/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7015269/ [3] https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/depression/2023-gray.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/depression/2023-gray.pdf [4] https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00059-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00059-3 [5] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19945203/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19945203/ [6] https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2013/stress-report.pdf https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2013/stress-r... [7] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2056305121988931 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2056305121988931 [8] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360131520302244 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03601...
michaelt 3y ago
> I'm surprised people who grew up with technology didn't learn from their own experience as a kid that censorware doesn't work and kids will always find a way to circumvent it if they want to. You could bypass it 30 years ago, sure - but things have gotten a lot more locked down since then, with the rise of smartphones and tablets. Maybe the censorship tech managed to take advantage of that? Obviously I haven't followed the advances in such things myself - but there could be some better stuff out there these days.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  And there's a lot more "ways around" than there used to be, too. Go find me a simple way to block DNS over HTTPS at a router, so requests are forced to the DNS server I have control over (Pi-Hole or such). I've yet to find one that doesn't involve "Maintaining a list of DNS-over-HTTPS providers and blocking them by IP."
  - ndriscoll 3y ago
    This certainly could be done by only allowing outgoing traffic to addresses that have been in the results of a recent DNS lookup (so your DNS server tells your firewall about client lookups). I don't know whether any off-the-shelf solution can do that though. You could also require all traffic to go through a MITM proxy so you can inspect it, though that wouldn't work so well for guests.
slothtrop 3y ago
Takes for granted the fact that circumvention was possible in part owing to large amounts of free time spend at the family computer, making the effort worthwhile (and even so, not every kid will bother). With screentime restrictions this would be a moot point. > this is only happening in the US Not true last I checked. There's also a global phenomenon of worsening school performance, correlated strongly with the proliferation of smartphones.
- graemep 3y ago
  Worsening school performance also seems to be correlated with worsening schools. I only really know the issues in the UK but many seem common with other western countries: management by target and metrics, excessive pressure to achieve, demoralised teachers. correlation does not imply causation, especially likely to be entirely spurious with time series data
  - slothtrop 3y ago
    Like I said, this is a global phenomenon that is not restricted to NA or even just the West, all of East Asia is seeing the same thing. Noah Smith wrote about it this year. I have seen zero evidence to suggest that schools are worsening everywhere. > management by target and metrics, excessive pressure to achieve That is not new. edit: Haidt recently had a word responding to critics tangentially related to this -- https://twitter.com/JonHaidt/status/1774571680511508601 https://twitter.com/JonHaidt/status/1774571680511508601

Syonyk 3y ago

> Also, the internet is currently being scapegoated by the media for the teen mental health crisis but this is only happening in the US and other countries also have teens with internet access. [Citation needed] The teenage mental health crisis is across a wide range of countries, all starting roughly with the smartphone. Here's one discussion on Nordic countries that demonstrates a rise in teen mental health issues at exactly the same time we saw in the US: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/international-mental-illness-part-two https://www.afterbabel.com/p/international-mental-illness-pa... - and the data for various other European and Asian nations all looks about the same. Of course, if you've started with the conclusion that smartphones and social media can't possibly be the problem, you'll be able to deflect anything away from that particular cause.

csnover 3y ago
> Of course, if you've started with the conclusion that smartphones and social media can't possibly be the problem, you'll be able to deflect anything away from that particular cause. Similarly, starting with the conclusion that smartphones and social media must be the problem, you’ll deflect away from a lot of contradictory evidence that suggest a more complex interplay between other societal issues, and that smartphones/social media are—if anything—likely just illuminating and amplifying known and pre-existing root causes of poor mental health in young people: poverty, trauma, discrimination, and pressure to excel[0]. Literature reviews of social media and smartphone use show “conflicting small positive, negative and null associations” and “do not offer a way of distinguishing cause from effect”[1]. Some hypothesised alternative causes of increases in depressive and anxiety symptoms with some stronger effect sizes include: increases in online bullying, decreases in sleep, long-term effects of the Great Recession (and, by extension, the European debt crisis), biological changes[2], restrictions on independent activity[3], and climate change[4]. Even before the invention of the smartphone, psychopathologies in young Americans had increased by a full standard deviation[5] over the previous 70 years. The number of teens that report extremely high levels of stress doubles during the school year[6], yet there is little blame currently being cast in that direction, despite it being the overwhelmingly largest self-reported source of stress at 83%. Claiming causation from such weak evidence is not merely foolish, it’s potentially quite dangerous. Despite the parent commenter’s incorrect claim that this is purely an American issue, they are almost certainly correct that smartphones and social media are currently being used as scapegoats so society can avoid confronting and addressing the deeply entrenched and deeply uncomfortable root causes of harm. I think this can be seen, at least in part, in the casual discarding of evidence that—especially for marginalised groups[7]—access to online spaces can be protective to young peoples’ mental health. Trying to avoid discussing the root problems is bad enough on its own, since it means they will not be fixed, but the proposed solution of using restrictive mediation—that is, shielding young people from harm rather than educating them—is almost certainly worse than doing nothing at all[8]. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31697105/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31697105/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8221420/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8221420/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7015269/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7015269/ [3] https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/depression/2023-gray.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/depression/2023-gray.pdf [4] https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00059-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00059-3 [5] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19945203/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19945203/ [6] https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2013/stress-report.pdf https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2013/stress-r... [7] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2056305121988931 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2056305121988931 [8] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360131520302244 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03601...

michaelt 3y ago

> I'm surprised people who grew up with technology didn't learn from their own experience as a kid that censorware doesn't work and kids will always find a way to circumvent it if they want to. You could bypass it 30 years ago, sure - but things have gotten a lot more locked down since then, with the rise of smartphones and tablets. Maybe the censorship tech managed to take advantage of that? Obviously I haven't followed the advances in such things myself - but there could be some better stuff out there these days.

Syonyk 3y ago
And there's a lot more "ways around" than there used to be, too. Go find me a simple way to block DNS over HTTPS at a router, so requests are forced to the DNS server I have control over (Pi-Hole or such). I've yet to find one that doesn't involve "Maintaining a list of DNS-over-HTTPS providers and blocking them by IP."
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  This certainly could be done by only allowing outgoing traffic to addresses that have been in the results of a recent DNS lookup (so your DNS server tells your firewall about client lookups). I don't know whether any off-the-shelf solution can do that though. You could also require all traffic to go through a MITM proxy so you can inspect it, though that wouldn't work so well for guests.

slothtrop 3y ago

Takes for granted the fact that circumvention was possible in part owing to large amounts of free time spend at the family computer, making the effort worthwhile (and even so, not every kid will bother). With screentime restrictions this would be a moot point. > this is only happening in the US Not true last I checked. There's also a global phenomenon of worsening school performance, correlated strongly with the proliferation of smartphones.

graemep 3y ago
Worsening school performance also seems to be correlated with worsening schools. I only really know the issues in the UK but many seem common with other western countries: management by target and metrics, excessive pressure to achieve, demoralised teachers. correlation does not imply causation, especially likely to be entirely spurious with time series data
- slothtrop 3y ago
  Like I said, this is a global phenomenon that is not restricted to NA or even just the West, all of East Asia is seeing the same thing. Noah Smith wrote about it this year. I have seen zero evidence to suggest that schools are worsening everywhere. > management by target and metrics, excessive pressure to achieve That is not new. edit: Haidt recently had a word responding to critics tangentially related to this -- https://twitter.com/JonHaidt/status/1774571680511508601 https://twitter.com/JonHaidt/status/1774571680511508601