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Can you expand? Doesn't treatment free mean that their apiary is self-selecting? How does this mean cross-contaminating neighboring, treated apiaries? (I know

Can you expand? Doesn't treatment free mean that their apiary is self-selecting? How does this mean cross-contaminating neighboring, treated apiaries? (I know very little about this. Just honestly asking for more info because I'm curious)

Suppafly 3y ago
Not the other guy, but presumably 'treatment free' means that you have hives full of diseased bees or bees infested with mites. Those sick/infested bees then spread those things to wild bees and to other apiaries. Even if the neighbors are willing to treat, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll survive being constantly reinfected by the non-treatment hives.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Treatment-free should mean that you're using IPM methods. It should not be self selecting, but selection aided by the beekeeper heading off problems (requeening, brood breaks, and even treatment when absolutely necessary - like burning your hive if you get AFB, or treating for EFB). You still need to be monitoring your hives. "Even if the neighbors are willing to treat, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll survive being constantly reinfected by the non-treatment hives." This is not really how it works for most of the diseases and parasites. Yes, things like foulbrood would act this way. But the stuff that is commonly treated for are mites and parasites like nosema. Even if you treat for these, there will still be a level of it present in the hive. Even healthy hives have bees with one or more of the nosema species present in their guts to some degree. That's why diagnosis of nosema relies on concentrations counted under a hemocytometer.
  - forgetfreeman 3y ago
    "Even if you treat for these, there will still be a level of it present in the hive." True, which is why all hives need to be actively managed to optimize survival rates, but this comment coyly fails to acknowledge that mite counts in surrounding hives do measurably spike when a neighboring hive craters.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Show me the data. If you define surrounding hives as those within 30 feet or so, yes due to drift they will see a spike. More distant hives should not. Actively managed and treatment-free are not antonyms. If someone thinks they are, that's a problem.
      - forgetfreeman 3y ago
        I like that you're pretending in two places in the comments that sick hives don't get robbed out during their collapse. I posted some reading material for you elsewhere in the thread. Give it a once over, it looks like you might learn something.
        giantg2 3y ago
        "I like that you're pretending in two places in the comments that sick hives don't get robbed out during their collapse." Nice strawman. I make no such claim. Most hives that get robbed out are predominately done so by the hives in the same apiary. "Give it a once over, it looks like you might learn something." Based on my interaction with you, I highly doubt it has anything to offer.
      - nothercastle 3y ago
        Treatment free is euphemism for the owner deciding it was cheaper to accept 50% losses then to manage the hive with treatment. It’s basically impossible to do treatment free unless you are on a island
        giantg2 3y ago
        You get 50% losses even if you treat. You can still manage a hive with IPM and be treatment-free - management strategies are not the same as treatments (even experts list IPM strategies separate from treatments in their books/websites).
        nothercastle 3y ago
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  > doesn't necessarily mean they'll survive being constantly reinfected Also known as nature. On the other hand, the natural hives have to deal with resistant parasites and microbes, due to the prophylactic treatments not being 100% effective, creating an evolution chamber for the illness-causing agents.
  - Suppafly 3y ago
    Sure, but it's not really nature when you essentially have one keeper constantly raising and introducing extra disease and mites into the environment. It'd be like if you had an infectious disease and constantly went out into public instead of staying home to recover. Sure all the other people getting sick from your infection could be handwaved as being natural, but ultimately it's because you hung around them.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      This is great explaination for why commercial beekeepers should not be migrating hives - turning epidemics into pandemics.
    - gorjusborg 3y ago
      > Sure, but it's not really nature Yeah, bee keeping isn't really nature, it's agriculture (humans harnessing nature). That doesn't mean we have to go 'hardcore' because it isn't nature. We can try to keep it close if we want, and I think we should bias that way, where feasible.
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      Exactly, and even worse because the analogous disease would have no easy vaccine everyone else can use to ignore it. In other words, less like measles and more like drug resistant tuberculosis.
forgetfreeman 3y ago
Not really, no. The population is being artificially propped up by managed hive splits and a continuous influx of stock from breeder mills. To exert real selection pressure requires careful husbandry at industrial scale in an environment isolated from introduction of unmanaged genetics.
- giantg2 3y ago
  The VSH bees fit that description as they are created from artificial insemination. Yes, it will take generations to make an impact due to feral colonies and the breeder mills not using VSH stock effectively.

Suppafly 3y ago

Not the other guy, but presumably 'treatment free' means that you have hives full of diseased bees or bees infested with mites. Those sick/infested bees then spread those things to wild bees and to other apiaries. Even if the neighbors are willing to treat, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll survive being constantly reinfected by the non-treatment hives.

giantg2 3y ago
Treatment-free should mean that you're using IPM methods. It should not be self selecting, but selection aided by the beekeeper heading off problems (requeening, brood breaks, and even treatment when absolutely necessary - like burning your hive if you get AFB, or treating for EFB). You still need to be monitoring your hives. "Even if the neighbors are willing to treat, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll survive being constantly reinfected by the non-treatment hives." This is not really how it works for most of the diseases and parasites. Yes, things like foulbrood would act this way. But the stuff that is commonly treated for are mites and parasites like nosema. Even if you treat for these, there will still be a level of it present in the hive. Even healthy hives have bees with one or more of the nosema species present in their guts to some degree. That's why diagnosis of nosema relies on concentrations counted under a hemocytometer.
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  "Even if you treat for these, there will still be a level of it present in the hive." True, which is why all hives need to be actively managed to optimize survival rates, but this comment coyly fails to acknowledge that mite counts in surrounding hives do measurably spike when a neighboring hive craters.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Show me the data. If you define surrounding hives as those within 30 feet or so, yes due to drift they will see a spike. More distant hives should not. Actively managed and treatment-free are not antonyms. If someone thinks they are, that's a problem.
    - forgetfreeman 3y ago
      I like that you're pretending in two places in the comments that sick hives don't get robbed out during their collapse. I posted some reading material for you elsewhere in the thread. Give it a once over, it looks like you might learn something.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        "I like that you're pretending in two places in the comments that sick hives don't get robbed out during their collapse." Nice strawman. I make no such claim. Most hives that get robbed out are predominately done so by the hives in the same apiary. "Give it a once over, it looks like you might learn something." Based on my interaction with you, I highly doubt it has anything to offer.
    - nothercastle 3y ago
      Treatment free is euphemism for the owner deciding it was cheaper to accept 50% losses then to manage the hive with treatment. It’s basically impossible to do treatment free unless you are on a island
      - giantg2 3y ago
        You get 50% losses even if you treat. You can still manage a hive with IPM and be treatment-free - management strategies are not the same as treatments (even experts list IPM strategies separate from treatments in their books/websites).
        nothercastle 3y ago
gorjusborg 3y ago
> doesn't necessarily mean they'll survive being constantly reinfected Also known as nature. On the other hand, the natural hives have to deal with resistant parasites and microbes, due to the prophylactic treatments not being 100% effective, creating an evolution chamber for the illness-causing agents.
- Suppafly 3y ago
  Sure, but it's not really nature when you essentially have one keeper constantly raising and introducing extra disease and mites into the environment. It'd be like if you had an infectious disease and constantly went out into public instead of staying home to recover. Sure all the other people getting sick from your infection could be handwaved as being natural, but ultimately it's because you hung around them.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    This is great explaination for why commercial beekeepers should not be migrating hives - turning epidemics into pandemics.
  - gorjusborg 3y ago
    > Sure, but it's not really nature Yeah, bee keeping isn't really nature, it's agriculture (humans harnessing nature). That doesn't mean we have to go 'hardcore' because it isn't nature. We can try to keep it close if we want, and I think we should bias that way, where feasible.
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    Exactly, and even worse because the analogous disease would have no easy vaccine everyone else can use to ignore it. In other words, less like measles and more like drug resistant tuberculosis.

forgetfreeman 3y ago

Not really, no. The population is being artificially propped up by managed hive splits and a continuous influx of stock from breeder mills. To exert real selection pressure requires careful husbandry at industrial scale in an environment isolated from introduction of unmanaged genetics.

giantg2 3y ago
The VSH bees fit that description as they are created from artificial insemination. Yes, it will take generations to make an impact due to feral colonies and the breeder mills not using VSH stock effectively.