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China's Advancing Efforts to Influence the U.S. Election Raise Alarms

30 points by 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

palmfacehn 3y ago
I expect two dominant themes to develop during this iteration of "The most important election of our lives" 1) The importance of government truth czars and their adjacent fact-checkers 2) Digital ID as a prerequisite to publishing online, to protect the public from "dangerous misinformation" All that is needed to advance these already in play promotions is a disinformation Pearl Harbor event. Not to say that "disinformation" isn't emerging organically from all sides or that deceptive reporting is something new. Incentives are aligned to promote it as something novel which requires regulatory action.
- verdverm 3y ago
  We already saw the warning shot in the NH primaries... https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4451721-new-hampshire-ag-says-fake-biden-robocall-before-election-traced-to-texas-firm/ https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4451721-new-hampshire-... I'm more keen on the Bluesky idea for Stackable Moderation: https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderation https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderati... Anyone can run one, users can pick those they follow, let market forces go to work. I was talking with a friend about putting the equivalent of a yubikey in the photo ids we already get. Mostly out of complaints in dealing with gov't systems and trying to remove pain there, but could also be used as the "blue check" rather than a gatekeeping device. I would say the country of origin ought to be attached to "verified posters"
  - washadjeffmad 3y ago
    It's been going on for the past year. See the equivalent "AI POTUS promises free Social Security money" ads targeted to vulnerable and elderly populations: https://www.newsweek.com/tik-tok-scam-social-security-biden-snoop-dogg-1850135 https://www.newsweek.com/tik-tok-scam-social-security-biden-... https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/fake-biden-audio-used-videos-promoting-6400-stimulus-2024-01-31/ https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/fake-biden-audio-used-vid... I block ads, disable multimedia playback in the browser, and am probably no one's target demographic, so I would never have known about it if I didn't hear it blasting on two elderly people's smartphones at the doctor recently. If that wasn't concerning enough, it set off a discussion about them. They couldn't tell it was fake.
- trelane 3y ago
  "All that is needed to advance these already in play promotions is a disinformation Pearl Harbor event." That was the 2016 US presidential election, pretty clearly.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  A truth czar would be hillarious. The Emperor of Truth and Good Taste. The whole concept of "disinformation" is toxic. One can't imply people are lying when they are wrong, becouse you are also wrong, and thus lying. The whole debate about everything is undermined by this mindset.
  - trelane 3y ago
    Maybe one could create a department to maintain veracity in the public sphere. Some sort of ministry of truth.
  - palmfacehn 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Boar... https://nypost.com/2022/04/29/biden-disinfo-czar-nina-jankowicz-ripped-over-tiktok/ https://nypost.com/2022/04/29/biden-disinfo-czar-nina-jankow...
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      I am behind the times...
h2odragon 3y ago
The efforts of foreign governments to misinform and deceive the American public are tiny compared to the domestic efforts.
- laidoffamazon 3y ago
  You understand foreign interests moulding American policy are inherently worse than domestic ones, yes? There's a reason why we ban foreign donations to political candidates and why we require lobbyists of foreign interests to register.
  - silverquiet 3y ago
    I think foreign and domestic are fuzzier than people imagine. Lots of companies are nominally American, but when it comes time to pay taxes, all of a sudden a lot of their revenue is really happening in another country.
    - laidoffamazon 3y ago
      I also don't think candidates should accept money from Apple's corporate PAC either if that's your question.
    - rchaud 3y ago
      That's why Halliburton is based in Dubai, to escape the claws of the taxman. VP (and former Halliburton CEO) Dick Cheney awarded them those Iraq contracts fair and square!
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Trans-national corporations like Facebook are not meaningfully domestic.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      You'll say that even after the USG breaks one up.
bobx11 3y ago
Before the social media mega companies we had all sorts of weird conspiracy theory nuts, but it was a lot easier to be skeptical when you only hear about it from the one guy who always has those nutty ideas (we all have that one uncle). But his ramblings can masquerade as credible when they are backed by larger groups people regurgitating the same talking points in unison on social media, filled with ai images and any other tool they can use to appear more credible. IMO we need to go back to email lists. No more algorithmic feeds controlled by mega companies… for the same reason that our government in the USA suffered as a result of senators no longer moving their whole families to Washington during their term - those of us that are consuming content from feed algorithms are only seeing what triggers them to want to scroll more, not a balanced assortment of info from everyone.
- lancesells 3y ago
  The train has left the station. There's no going back to email lists. What would be better is to build a product that's better than the current ones or force change. I'm honestly suprised Youtube doesn't get dragged in the media with what they put in that sidebar. They are setting up a generation of adolescents with a bunch of extreme, and rather adult, content that is real-life or masquerades as real.
  - tivert 3y ago
    > The train has left the station. There's no going back to email lists. Not if it's left up to market forces, but regulation could do it. > What would be better is to build a product that's better than the current ones or force change. IMHO, that's a fantasy.
blackoil 3y ago
Targeting a particular govt or organization won't be fruitful. Simply because publishing fake news is profitable. Even if no state is sponsoring it, people will still publish it because publishing crazy wild theories attract eyeballs and make money.
laidoffamazon 3y ago
The net effect of this will be small, but the money quote is literally in the first line (emphasis mine) > Covert Chinese accounts are masquerading online as American supporters of former President Donald J. Trump, promoting conspiracy theories, stoking domestic divisions and *attacking President Biden* ahead of the election in November, according to researchers and government officials. One must wonder why almost all foreign interests opposed to the United States maintaining our superpower status - the Russians, the PRC - are opposed to a particular candidate (President Joe Biden). The same thing happened in 2016 too, against a particular candidate (Hillary Clinton) by the Russians. As a former President said, "I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
- rayiner 3y ago
  > One must wonder why almost all foreign interests opposed to the United States maintaining our superpower status - the Russians, the PRC - are opposed to a particular candidate (President Joe Biden). The same thing happened in 2016 too, against a particular candidate (Hillary Clinton) by the Russians Because 95% of journalists oppose that candidate, and “our enemies want $CANDIDATE to win” is a comforting and easy to promote notion.
  - lancesells 3y ago
    Or maybe it's journalists quoting the candidate: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1GG03P/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1GG03P/ > "He's now president for life, president for life. And he's great," Trump said, according to audio of excerpts of Trump's remarks at a closed-door fundraiser in Florida aired by CNN. "And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot someday," Trump said to cheers and applause from supporters. > It is not clear if Trump, 71, was making the comment about extending presidential service in jest. The White House did not respond to a request for comment late Saturday. > U.S. Representative Ro Khanna, a Democrat, said on Twitter that "whether this was a joke or not, talking about being President for life like Xi Jinping is the most unAmerican sentiment expressed by an American President. George Washington would roll over in his grave."
science4sail 3y ago
I'm more surprised that countries don't try to meddle in the US election. Despite the rise of challengers, the USA remains the world's pre-eminent power and continues to have an outsized voice in international institutions. As such it is the closest thing to a world government. Why wouldn't other countries try to influence the course of the world government?
- rchaud 3y ago
  Election meddling is not needed considering the extent of legalized bribery in Congress which for PC reasons is called "lobbying". You don't need the President if you have Senators and Congresspersons that have mastered the art of not passing any bills and falling asleep on CSPAN. Influencing a presidential pick rarely pays off unless they are a "disruptor" who promises to restructure the civil service and diplomatic offices. Those are the groups that foreign nations deal with. They want influence over those because they are the intermediaries that can change a President's mind on an issue.
- trelane 3y ago
  They do. All the time. It seems to only be news when they support Trump or are against the Democratic presidential candidate, though. https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2024/01/foreign-interference-us-elections-isnt-old-news/393582/ https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2024/01/foreign-interferenc... https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/trecms/pdf/AD1213704.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/trecms/pdf/AD1213704.pdf looks to be an excellent review of the subject, though I've only now discovered it and therefore haven't read it in detail yet. E.g. "Russia has been trying to influence elections worldwide since the 17th century (Shimer, 2020). Election interference is also a goal of many Russian military operations. Many of these disinformation campaigns aim to sow discord among the population and attempt to get elected the candidate that best suits Russia’s interests." It seems quite clear to me that every nation participates in misinformation campaigns to affect other nations' elections in was beneficial to the actor.
atonse 3y ago
They do this because there’s no way to ever compete in an actual battlefield with our military, we’re too far ahead. But in the arena of elections and social media, a free society like ours where we can’t just stop the flow of information (like China), is terribly vulnerable. So they’re exploiting it. Don’t know what the solution is. Apart from kneecapping social media companies.
- tivert 3y ago
  > They do this because there’s no way to ever compete in an actual battlefield with our military, we’re too far ahead. Don't get cocky. As an American, I think there's reasonably large chance that the US military is a paper tiger (at least in relation to China), because we lack the industrial base and production capacity to sustain a fight. China is the workshop of the world now, not the US, and that means that things could be really bleak once the stockpiles of missiles, etc. are exhausted. US policy vis-a-vis Ukraine has pushed Russia into a closer relationship with China, and that could also mitigate some of China's weaknesses (e.g. Russia going to sell them oil, not embargo them, if there's a hot war with the US).
  - rayiner 3y ago
    This is an underestimated point. The US navy grew from 350 ships in the 1930s to almost 7,000 by 1945. The army was down to 200,000 troops right before the war. It’s not clear whether China’s industrial capacity is as great as the US was then. But the relatively small size of the Chinese military now isn’t necessarily indicative of much.
    - maxglute 3y ago
      >It’s not clear whether China’s industrial capacity is as great as the US was then PRC shipbuilding passed 40 million deadweight tons a couple years ago, that's comparable to peak 1944 US production during WW2, but sustained during peacetime and still growing. But IMO, industrial capacity worth tracking is the harder count highend ordnances that can be stockpiled enmass. CCTV7 showed off automated factories that produce 1000 cruise missle components a day. A few weeks of production = enough theatre cruise missiles to satuate entire US+co hardware in region. Ultimately, peer war boils down to making things go boom and and magazine depth at scale.
rayiner 3y ago
So the 2024 election will either be stolen one way, or it will be stolen another way?
Simulacra 3y ago
So last time it was Russia, this time it's China?
- endemic 3y ago
  Why not both?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hackeraccount 3y ago
China supports your preferred candidate! No! China supports your preferred candidate! Repeat forever and ever.
fuckingkike 3y ago
[dead]

30 points by 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

I expect two dominant themes to develop during this iteration of "The most important election of our lives" 1) The importance of government truth czars and their adjacent fact-checkers 2) Digital ID as a prerequisite to publishing online, to protect the public from "dangerous misinformation" All that is needed to advance these already in play promotions is a disinformation Pearl Harbor event. Not to say that "disinformation" isn't emerging organically from all sides or that deceptive reporting is something new. Incentives are aligned to promote it as something novel which requires regulatory action.

verdverm 3y ago
We already saw the warning shot in the NH primaries... https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4451721-new-hampshire-ag-says-fake-biden-robocall-before-election-traced-to-texas-firm/ https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4451721-new-hampshire-... I'm more keen on the Bluesky idea for Stackable Moderation: https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderation https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderati... Anyone can run one, users can pick those they follow, let market forces go to work. I was talking with a friend about putting the equivalent of a yubikey in the photo ids we already get. Mostly out of complaints in dealing with gov't systems and trying to remove pain there, but could also be used as the "blue check" rather than a gatekeeping device. I would say the country of origin ought to be attached to "verified posters"
- washadjeffmad 3y ago
  It's been going on for the past year. See the equivalent "AI POTUS promises free Social Security money" ads targeted to vulnerable and elderly populations: https://www.newsweek.com/tik-tok-scam-social-security-biden-snoop-dogg-1850135 https://www.newsweek.com/tik-tok-scam-social-security-biden-... https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/fake-biden-audio-used-videos-promoting-6400-stimulus-2024-01-31/ https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/fake-biden-audio-used-vid... I block ads, disable multimedia playback in the browser, and am probably no one's target demographic, so I would never have known about it if I didn't hear it blasting on two elderly people's smartphones at the doctor recently. If that wasn't concerning enough, it set off a discussion about them. They couldn't tell it was fake.
trelane 3y ago
"All that is needed to advance these already in play promotions is a disinformation Pearl Harbor event." That was the 2016 US presidential election, pretty clearly.
rightbyte 3y ago
A truth czar would be hillarious. The Emperor of Truth and Good Taste. The whole concept of "disinformation" is toxic. One can't imply people are lying when they are wrong, becouse you are also wrong, and thus lying. The whole debate about everything is undermined by this mindset.
- trelane 3y ago
  Maybe one could create a department to maintain veracity in the public sphere. Some sort of ministry of truth.
- palmfacehn 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Boar... https://nypost.com/2022/04/29/biden-disinfo-czar-nina-jankowicz-ripped-over-tiktok/ https://nypost.com/2022/04/29/biden-disinfo-czar-nina-jankow...
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    I am behind the times...

h2odragon 3y ago

The efforts of foreign governments to misinform and deceive the American public are tiny compared to the domestic efforts.

laidoffamazon 3y ago
You understand foreign interests moulding American policy are inherently worse than domestic ones, yes? There's a reason why we ban foreign donations to political candidates and why we require lobbyists of foreign interests to register.
- silverquiet 3y ago
  I think foreign and domestic are fuzzier than people imagine. Lots of companies are nominally American, but when it comes time to pay taxes, all of a sudden a lot of their revenue is really happening in another country.
  - laidoffamazon 3y ago
    I also don't think candidates should accept money from Apple's corporate PAC either if that's your question.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    That's why Halliburton is based in Dubai, to escape the claws of the taxman. VP (and former Halliburton CEO) Dick Cheney awarded them those Iraq contracts fair and square!
- rayiner 3y ago
  Trans-national corporations like Facebook are not meaningfully domestic.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    You'll say that even after the USG breaks one up.

bobx11 3y ago

Before the social media mega companies we had all sorts of weird conspiracy theory nuts, but it was a lot easier to be skeptical when you only hear about it from the one guy who always has those nutty ideas (we all have that one uncle). But his ramblings can masquerade as credible when they are backed by larger groups people regurgitating the same talking points in unison on social media, filled with ai images and any other tool they can use to appear more credible. IMO we need to go back to email lists. No more algorithmic feeds controlled by mega companies… for the same reason that our government in the USA suffered as a result of senators no longer moving their whole families to Washington during their term - those of us that are consuming content from feed algorithms are only seeing what triggers them to want to scroll more, not a balanced assortment of info from everyone.

lancesells 3y ago
The train has left the station. There's no going back to email lists. What would be better is to build a product that's better than the current ones or force change. I'm honestly suprised Youtube doesn't get dragged in the media with what they put in that sidebar. They are setting up a generation of adolescents with a bunch of extreme, and rather adult, content that is real-life or masquerades as real.
- tivert 3y ago
  > The train has left the station. There's no going back to email lists. Not if it's left up to market forces, but regulation could do it. > What would be better is to build a product that's better than the current ones or force change. IMHO, that's a fantasy.

blackoil 3y ago

Targeting a particular govt or organization won't be fruitful. Simply because publishing fake news is profitable. Even if no state is sponsoring it, people will still publish it because publishing crazy wild theories attract eyeballs and make money.

laidoffamazon 3y ago

The net effect of this will be small, but the money quote is literally in the first line (emphasis mine) > Covert Chinese accounts are masquerading online as American supporters of former President Donald J. Trump, promoting conspiracy theories, stoking domestic divisions and *attacking President Biden* ahead of the election in November, according to researchers and government officials. One must wonder why almost all foreign interests opposed to the United States maintaining our superpower status - the Russians, the PRC - are opposed to a particular candidate (President Joe Biden). The same thing happened in 2016 too, against a particular candidate (Hillary Clinton) by the Russians. As a former President said, "I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."

rayiner 3y ago
> One must wonder why almost all foreign interests opposed to the United States maintaining our superpower status - the Russians, the PRC - are opposed to a particular candidate (President Joe Biden). The same thing happened in 2016 too, against a particular candidate (Hillary Clinton) by the Russians Because 95% of journalists oppose that candidate, and “our enemies want $CANDIDATE to win” is a comforting and easy to promote notion.
- lancesells 3y ago
  Or maybe it's journalists quoting the candidate: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1GG03P/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1GG03P/ > "He's now president for life, president for life. And he's great," Trump said, according to audio of excerpts of Trump's remarks at a closed-door fundraiser in Florida aired by CNN. "And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot someday," Trump said to cheers and applause from supporters. > It is not clear if Trump, 71, was making the comment about extending presidential service in jest. The White House did not respond to a request for comment late Saturday. > U.S. Representative Ro Khanna, a Democrat, said on Twitter that "whether this was a joke or not, talking about being President for life like Xi Jinping is the most unAmerican sentiment expressed by an American President. George Washington would roll over in his grave."

science4sail 3y ago

I'm more surprised that countries don't try to meddle in the US election. Despite the rise of challengers, the USA remains the world's pre-eminent power and continues to have an outsized voice in international institutions. As such it is the closest thing to a world government. Why wouldn't other countries try to influence the course of the world government?

rchaud 3y ago
Election meddling is not needed considering the extent of legalized bribery in Congress which for PC reasons is called "lobbying". You don't need the President if you have Senators and Congresspersons that have mastered the art of not passing any bills and falling asleep on CSPAN. Influencing a presidential pick rarely pays off unless they are a "disruptor" who promises to restructure the civil service and diplomatic offices. Those are the groups that foreign nations deal with. They want influence over those because they are the intermediaries that can change a President's mind on an issue.
trelane 3y ago
They do. All the time. It seems to only be news when they support Trump or are against the Democratic presidential candidate, though. https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2024/01/foreign-interference-us-elections-isnt-old-news/393582/ https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2024/01/foreign-interferenc... https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/trecms/pdf/AD1213704.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/trecms/pdf/AD1213704.pdf looks to be an excellent review of the subject, though I've only now discovered it and therefore haven't read it in detail yet. E.g. "Russia has been trying to influence elections worldwide since the 17th century (Shimer, 2020). Election interference is also a goal of many Russian military operations. Many of these disinformation campaigns aim to sow discord among the population and attempt to get elected the candidate that best suits Russia’s interests." It seems quite clear to me that every nation participates in misinformation campaigns to affect other nations' elections in was beneficial to the actor.

atonse 3y ago

They do this because there’s no way to ever compete in an actual battlefield with our military, we’re too far ahead. But in the arena of elections and social media, a free society like ours where we can’t just stop the flow of information (like China), is terribly vulnerable. So they’re exploiting it. Don’t know what the solution is. Apart from kneecapping social media companies.

tivert 3y ago
> They do this because there’s no way to ever compete in an actual battlefield with our military, we’re too far ahead. Don't get cocky. As an American, I think there's reasonably large chance that the US military is a paper tiger (at least in relation to China), because we lack the industrial base and production capacity to sustain a fight. China is the workshop of the world now, not the US, and that means that things could be really bleak once the stockpiles of missiles, etc. are exhausted. US policy vis-a-vis Ukraine has pushed Russia into a closer relationship with China, and that could also mitigate some of China's weaknesses (e.g. Russia going to sell them oil, not embargo them, if there's a hot war with the US).
- rayiner 3y ago
  This is an underestimated point. The US navy grew from 350 ships in the 1930s to almost 7,000 by 1945. The army was down to 200,000 troops right before the war. It’s not clear whether China’s industrial capacity is as great as the US was then. But the relatively small size of the Chinese military now isn’t necessarily indicative of much.
  - maxglute 3y ago
    >It’s not clear whether China’s industrial capacity is as great as the US was then PRC shipbuilding passed 40 million deadweight tons a couple years ago, that's comparable to peak 1944 US production during WW2, but sustained during peacetime and still growing. But IMO, industrial capacity worth tracking is the harder count highend ordnances that can be stockpiled enmass. CCTV7 showed off automated factories that produce 1000 cruise missle components a day. A few weeks of production = enough theatre cruise missiles to satuate entire US+co hardware in region. Ultimately, peer war boils down to making things go boom and and magazine depth at scale.

rayiner 3y ago

So the 2024 election will either be stolen one way, or it will be stolen another way?

Simulacra 3y ago

So last time it was Russia, this time it's China?

endemic 3y ago
Why not both?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hackeraccount 3y ago

China supports your preferred candidate! No! China supports your preferred candidate! Repeat forever and ever.

fuckingkike 3y ago

[dead]