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Amazing. I have Aphantasia, and I also happen to have a STEM college degree, have no autobiographical memory, and not remember people well. Oh and I also have a

Amazing. I have Aphantasia, and I also happen to have a STEM college degree, have no autobiographical memory, and not remember people well. Oh and I also have an autism diagnosis. In my opinion it's quite logical that someone who's not able to visualize things instead uses numbers and logical/mathematical constructs to describe them. It's one way to describe items by their core properties and attributes when image isn't available.

munchler 3y ago
> no autobiographical memory Can you clarify what that means? It seems like that would be an extreme amnesia, but perhaps I'm not understanding.
- SirRoderic 3y ago
  Not parent, but it sounds like I have a very similar neurotype — I am also autistic, aphantasic (I scored <1st percentile on the spatial-manipulation-in-your-head part of an IQ test at one point!), and have no autobiographical memory. The best way I can explain the latter, at least in my own experience, is that I have no first-person memory of events I've experienced, but I still know the "bullet points" of what happened: the raw facts, if you will. It's like if another person experienced my life on my behalf and gave me a daily summary; I know that a set of events happened, but I feel no personal connection to them and don't recall them in any more detail than e.g. information I've read out of a textbook (often less). I can easily recall other information, not associated with time/place/experience, with higher-than-average accuracy, but accessing personal-history-type memories takes a lot of conscious thought. There seem to be some rare exceptions for memories that are tied to extremely intense emotional or physical experiences, both positive and negative, but even then the memories are fairly weak/fuzzy. This has some funny side effects, for instance, innocuous small-talk questions like "what did you have for dinner yesterday" basically cause me to segfault because recalling information like that (plus the autistic compulsion to answer accurately) requires extreme cognitive effort. I also lack the ability to "miss" people because I have little to no personal memory of what it was like to have them around. In short, it can be socially inconvenient, but doesn't affect daily functioning.
  - readyplayernull 3y ago
    That's very interesting, thanks for clarifying, I'll probably remember your testimony for the rest of my life. Could you please answer some more questions: Is losing autobiographical memory inmediate, or could you remember a few seconds of what you see? Can you think in other languages? Can you learn patterns like chess moves? What is your oldest memory? Can you foresee events, like an accident about to happen? Do you have olfactory memory? Do you like any kind of puzzles? Can you follow or find things with a map?
    - aix1 3y ago
      I'm neither of the earlier posters but can relate since I have both aphantasia and SDAM (severely deficient autobiographical memory). In the current literature these are thought of as distinct things that often co-occur. > Is losing autobiographical memory immediate, or could you remember a few seconds of what you see? It's hard to describe this precisely. The visual memory is not lost; it is never formed in the first place. For example, immediately after talking to a person I wouldn't be able to tell the colour of their eyes unless I specifically noted and remembered it as a fact (articulated in my head using language). > Can you think in other languages? Yes, I speak multiple languages and do think and dream[1] in most of them. I love learning languages and have been told on many occasions that I'm pretty good at it. It's hard to say to what exent it's due to intrinsic motivation (to me, learning a language is like solving a good puzzle, and I love puzzles) and to what extent it's about aptitude (e.g. the ability to spot patterns, both within a language and across languages). [1] Based on the literature, it seems that some people with aphantasia have visual dreams and some do not. I do, and very occasionally have fleeing visual imagery when I'm sort-of awake but am either falling asleep or waking up. > Can you learn patterns like chess moves? Yes, easily. My brain is very good at spotting and remembering patterns (it just can't visualise them, in the sense that I'm guessing you mean when you talk about chess). > What is your oldest memory? I remember a handful of disjoint bits from my childhood, though as facts rather than as images. > Can you suppose future events, like an accident about to happen? Yeah, sure. In fact, I have a natural tendency to calculate everything a few steps ahead, probably more than is healthy. At the same time, I have had more than my fair share of personal accidents, but that probably has mostly to do with the fact that I do lots of sports and really like to push my physical boundaries. > Do you have olfactory memory? Not really. I can't even describe tastes or smells, except when they strongly remind me of something specific, e.g. some other thing that has a very distinctive smell. I can't even imagine what remembering tastes or smells would be like. After all, it took me more than 40 years to figure out that, when people spoke of visualising stuff, it wasn't just some figure of speech. :) > Do you like any kind of puzzles? LOVE puzzles. All sorts. Bring 'em on! :) > Can you follow or find thing with a map? Yes, easily. I use topo maps in the mountains all the time, have done a bit of orienteering etc. Correlating the two things that are in front of me -- the map and the terrain -- doesn't seem to require me to visualise anything. If you're curious to learn more about SDAM, here are some links that I found interesting. The first author's account reasonates a great deal with my experience (though some aspects do differ a fair bit). https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/90427/1/Watkins_%28A%29phantasia%20and%20deficient%20memory_2018.pdf https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/90427/1/Watkins_%28A%29phantasia%2... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839321500158X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839321... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFaw5RrKNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFaw5RrKNQ
- neon5077 3y ago
  It's pretty wild. Quite often I'll have a conversation with my husband where he tells me that I've already told this story, or that I said or did something, but I'll have no memory of it. Not even a vague recollection once reminded. Generally, the past doesn't exist. Or rather it exists in the same sort of hazy uncertainty that the future does. I do remember certain facts and events that my brain deemed important enough to commit to memory, but only as an abstract concept. My brain doesn't store past events in the same way that I experience them. There's no visual or sensory component, just raw facts and abstract ideas. There's usually no emotional component either. > Is losing autobiographical memory inmediate, or could you remember a few seconds of what you see? There's multiple levels to it. During some task or event, everything is available in working memory for up to a couple of hours. Basically it depends on mental focus keeping things in a single coherent state. Events not receiving active attention drop into a medium-term memory. They can last a few days depending on how impactful the events were, but generally things get cleared out during sleep. Essentially it's the same way most people's memory works, it's just that the way the information is formatted is very different. > Can you think in other languages? My thinking doesn't really involve language unless I'm thinking about speech or writing specifically. But yes, other languages work the same way in my head. It's one step removed from language. I tend to deal directly with the concept that a word represents. Ideas get converted to words as a post-processing step. Switching languages is pretty much just picking the word out of my French vocabulary instead of English. Formatting grammar works the same way, it's just rules and heuristics used to format data. > Can you learn patterns like chess moves? Yes, but not easily. Straight up memorizing an arbitrary sequence is pretty difficult. At one point I was actually really good at Rubik's cube solving, but it only took a few months of no practice for the rotation sequences to just evaporate from my brain. Games like Simon Says aren't any more or less difficult for me, as it's an isolated event trivially stored in working memory. > What is your oldest memory? Pretty typical, around 4 years old. I have very few memories of my childhood, but they're exceptionally vivid. They come closest to how I assume normal people experience memory. I remember seeing my mother at the stove and watching the pot boil, I remember what I was thinking and feeling. > Can you suppose future events, like an accident about to happen? I'd say I'm a bit above average at predicting events in the short term. I also tend to have pretty accurate gut instinct about the medium term. > Do you have olfactory memory? I recognize a smell if I've encountered it before, but I generally can't conjure a scent in my head. Memories almost never have scent included. However, the usual phenomenon of scent triggering a strong memory does work. Generally I'll remember qualities of a scent, it was harsh and acrid, soft and flowery. Same way other memories are reduced to a set of facts. > Do you like any kind of puzzles? Can you follow or find thing with a map? I like puzzles about as much as the average nerd. I've always had a very good sense of direction. There's a little corner of my brain that's always aware of where I am relative to landmarks, or checks the sun to find north. To a pretty good approximation, I always know where north is. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually felt lost. Though that specifically I think is just a habit I developed at a young age.

munchler 3y ago

> no autobiographical memory Can you clarify what that means? It seems like that would be an extreme amnesia, but perhaps I'm not understanding.

SirRoderic 3y ago
Not parent, but it sounds like I have a very similar neurotype — I am also autistic, aphantasic (I scored <1st percentile on the spatial-manipulation-in-your-head part of an IQ test at one point!), and have no autobiographical memory. The best way I can explain the latter, at least in my own experience, is that I have no first-person memory of events I've experienced, but I still know the "bullet points" of what happened: the raw facts, if you will. It's like if another person experienced my life on my behalf and gave me a daily summary; I know that a set of events happened, but I feel no personal connection to them and don't recall them in any more detail than e.g. information I've read out of a textbook (often less). I can easily recall other information, not associated with time/place/experience, with higher-than-average accuracy, but accessing personal-history-type memories takes a lot of conscious thought. There seem to be some rare exceptions for memories that are tied to extremely intense emotional or physical experiences, both positive and negative, but even then the memories are fairly weak/fuzzy. This has some funny side effects, for instance, innocuous small-talk questions like "what did you have for dinner yesterday" basically cause me to segfault because recalling information like that (plus the autistic compulsion to answer accurately) requires extreme cognitive effort. I also lack the ability to "miss" people because I have little to no personal memory of what it was like to have them around. In short, it can be socially inconvenient, but doesn't affect daily functioning.
- readyplayernull 3y ago
  That's very interesting, thanks for clarifying, I'll probably remember your testimony for the rest of my life. Could you please answer some more questions: Is losing autobiographical memory inmediate, or could you remember a few seconds of what you see? Can you think in other languages? Can you learn patterns like chess moves? What is your oldest memory? Can you foresee events, like an accident about to happen? Do you have olfactory memory? Do you like any kind of puzzles? Can you follow or find things with a map?
  - aix1 3y ago
    I'm neither of the earlier posters but can relate since I have both aphantasia and SDAM (severely deficient autobiographical memory). In the current literature these are thought of as distinct things that often co-occur. > Is losing autobiographical memory immediate, or could you remember a few seconds of what you see? It's hard to describe this precisely. The visual memory is not lost; it is never formed in the first place. For example, immediately after talking to a person I wouldn't be able to tell the colour of their eyes unless I specifically noted and remembered it as a fact (articulated in my head using language). > Can you think in other languages? Yes, I speak multiple languages and do think and dream[1] in most of them. I love learning languages and have been told on many occasions that I'm pretty good at it. It's hard to say to what exent it's due to intrinsic motivation (to me, learning a language is like solving a good puzzle, and I love puzzles) and to what extent it's about aptitude (e.g. the ability to spot patterns, both within a language and across languages). [1] Based on the literature, it seems that some people with aphantasia have visual dreams and some do not. I do, and very occasionally have fleeing visual imagery when I'm sort-of awake but am either falling asleep or waking up. > Can you learn patterns like chess moves? Yes, easily. My brain is very good at spotting and remembering patterns (it just can't visualise them, in the sense that I'm guessing you mean when you talk about chess). > What is your oldest memory? I remember a handful of disjoint bits from my childhood, though as facts rather than as images. > Can you suppose future events, like an accident about to happen? Yeah, sure. In fact, I have a natural tendency to calculate everything a few steps ahead, probably more than is healthy. At the same time, I have had more than my fair share of personal accidents, but that probably has mostly to do with the fact that I do lots of sports and really like to push my physical boundaries. > Do you have olfactory memory? Not really. I can't even describe tastes or smells, except when they strongly remind me of something specific, e.g. some other thing that has a very distinctive smell. I can't even imagine what remembering tastes or smells would be like. After all, it took me more than 40 years to figure out that, when people spoke of visualising stuff, it wasn't just some figure of speech. :) > Do you like any kind of puzzles? LOVE puzzles. All sorts. Bring 'em on! :) > Can you follow or find thing with a map? Yes, easily. I use topo maps in the mountains all the time, have done a bit of orienteering etc. Correlating the two things that are in front of me -- the map and the terrain -- doesn't seem to require me to visualise anything. If you're curious to learn more about SDAM, here are some links that I found interesting. The first author's account reasonates a great deal with my experience (though some aspects do differ a fair bit). https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/90427/1/Watkins_%28A%29phantasia%20and%20deficient%20memory_2018.pdf https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/90427/1/Watkins_%28A%29phantasia%2... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839321500158X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839321... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFaw5RrKNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFaw5RrKNQ
neon5077 3y ago
It's pretty wild. Quite often I'll have a conversation with my husband where he tells me that I've already told this story, or that I said or did something, but I'll have no memory of it. Not even a vague recollection once reminded. Generally, the past doesn't exist. Or rather it exists in the same sort of hazy uncertainty that the future does. I do remember certain facts and events that my brain deemed important enough to commit to memory, but only as an abstract concept. My brain doesn't store past events in the same way that I experience them. There's no visual or sensory component, just raw facts and abstract ideas. There's usually no emotional component either. > Is losing autobiographical memory inmediate, or could you remember a few seconds of what you see? There's multiple levels to it. During some task or event, everything is available in working memory for up to a couple of hours. Basically it depends on mental focus keeping things in a single coherent state. Events not receiving active attention drop into a medium-term memory. They can last a few days depending on how impactful the events were, but generally things get cleared out during sleep. Essentially it's the same way most people's memory works, it's just that the way the information is formatted is very different. > Can you think in other languages? My thinking doesn't really involve language unless I'm thinking about speech or writing specifically. But yes, other languages work the same way in my head. It's one step removed from language. I tend to deal directly with the concept that a word represents. Ideas get converted to words as a post-processing step. Switching languages is pretty much just picking the word out of my French vocabulary instead of English. Formatting grammar works the same way, it's just rules and heuristics used to format data. > Can you learn patterns like chess moves? Yes, but not easily. Straight up memorizing an arbitrary sequence is pretty difficult. At one point I was actually really good at Rubik's cube solving, but it only took a few months of no practice for the rotation sequences to just evaporate from my brain. Games like Simon Says aren't any more or less difficult for me, as it's an isolated event trivially stored in working memory. > What is your oldest memory? Pretty typical, around 4 years old. I have very few memories of my childhood, but they're exceptionally vivid. They come closest to how I assume normal people experience memory. I remember seeing my mother at the stove and watching the pot boil, I remember what I was thinking and feeling. > Can you suppose future events, like an accident about to happen? I'd say I'm a bit above average at predicting events in the short term. I also tend to have pretty accurate gut instinct about the medium term. > Do you have olfactory memory? I recognize a smell if I've encountered it before, but I generally can't conjure a scent in my head. Memories almost never have scent included. However, the usual phenomenon of scent triggering a strong memory does work. Generally I'll remember qualities of a scent, it was harsh and acrid, soft and flowery. Same way other memories are reduced to a set of facts. > Do you like any kind of puzzles? Can you follow or find thing with a map? I like puzzles about as much as the average nerd. I've always had a very good sense of direction. There's a little corner of my brain that's always aware of where I am relative to landmarks, or checks the sun to find north. To a pretty good approximation, I always know where north is. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually felt lost. Though that specifically I think is just a habit I developed at a young age.