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> Xiaomi CEO Lei Jun said the standard version of the SU7 will sell for the equivalent of $30,408 in China, a price he acknowledged would mean the company is lo

> Xiaomi CEO Lei Jun said the standard version of the SU7 will sell for the equivalent of $30,408 in China, a price he acknowledged would mean the company is losing money on each sale Isn't dumping banned by the WTO?

Retric 3y ago
Many US companies are also losing money on EV sales. I think dumping is more specific than just losing money you have to be selling in foreign markets for lower prices than you charge locally. “Ford is losing money on each EV it sells” https://www.npr.org/2023/08/11/1193083777/ford-electric-vehicles-f150-lightning-jim-farley https://www.npr.org/2023/08/11/1193083777/ford-electric-vehi...
- gnfargbl 3y ago
  Indeed: > Dumping is, in general, a situation of international price discrimination, where the price of a product when sold in the importing country is less than the price of that product in the market of the exporting country. -- https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/adp_e/adp_info_e.htm#:~:text=Dumping%20in%20the%20GATT%2FWTO,market%20of%20the%20exporting%20country https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/adp_e/adp_info_e.htm#:~....
  - Retric 3y ago
    Sorry edited that a few times, thanks for the link.
- maxerickson 3y ago
  Are they losing money on the incremental production, or not selling enough volume to cover development costs?
zztop44 3y ago
A Chinese company losing money on sales in China isn’t dumping and has nothing to do with the WTO.
impossiblefork 3y ago
"Since 11 December 2019, the Appellate Body is no longer able to deliver binding resolutions of trade disputes. Nor can it guarantee the right to appellate review. New appointments to the WTO's Appellate Body are blocked." This is due to the US blocking appointments to the Appellate Body. Basically the US does not want WTO rules to be binding, and want to be able to invoke national security to override any WTO rule without having this permit any kind of trade measures in response. Edit: I don't think this is necessarily terrible. The MFN rule is a problem for countries that form close associations in trade blocks, like the EU, so its destruction is probably good.
amou234 3y ago
Xiaomi isn't dumping (yet), but BYD is, and US is already keenly aware of Chinese dumping of electric vehicles years ago, that's why US currently has the 25 percent tax on Chinese made autos that Trump started in 2018, and Biden has continued since [1]. And that has so far prevented BYD and its Chinese EV peers (90 makers so far, but looking like 2-3 bankruptcy each month) from entering US market. Republican lawmakers and Trump are also looking to apply a 100% tariffs [2] Europe, the slow hare to US's rabbit, finally woke up in 2023, but just barely. They kicked off an inquiry into tariffs on Chinese EV vehicles in October 2023, and would take up to a year to finish [3]. These tariffs looks to be retroactive, as they have started requiring Chinese EV vehicles to be registered [4]. Europe, albeit slow witted, probably isn't going to willingly allow China to kill its own car industry, especially since China is actively helping Russia in attacking Europe. [1] https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-chinese-ev-byd-battery-detroit https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-c... [2] https://fortune.com/2024/03/16/trump-100-tariff-for-cars-made-in-mexico-by-chinese-firms/ https://fortune.com/2024/03/16/trump-100-tariff-for-cars-mad... [3] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsidy-investigation-into-chinese-electric-vehicles-2023-09-13/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsid... [4] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-moves-slap-retroactive-tariffs-093000980.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-moves-slap-retroactive-tar...

Retric 3y ago

Many US companies are also losing money on EV sales. I think dumping is more specific than just losing money you have to be selling in foreign markets for lower prices than you charge locally. “Ford is losing money on each EV it sells” https://www.npr.org/2023/08/11/1193083777/ford-electric-vehicles-f150-lightning-jim-farley https://www.npr.org/2023/08/11/1193083777/ford-electric-vehi...

gnfargbl 3y ago
Indeed: > Dumping is, in general, a situation of international price discrimination, where the price of a product when sold in the importing country is less than the price of that product in the market of the exporting country. -- https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/adp_e/adp_info_e.htm#:~:text=Dumping%20in%20the%20GATT%2FWTO,market%20of%20the%20exporting%20country https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/adp_e/adp_info_e.htm#:~....
- Retric 3y ago
  Sorry edited that a few times, thanks for the link.
maxerickson 3y ago
Are they losing money on the incremental production, or not selling enough volume to cover development costs?

zztop44 3y ago

A Chinese company losing money on sales in China isn’t dumping and has nothing to do with the WTO.

impossiblefork 3y ago

"Since 11 December 2019, the Appellate Body is no longer able to deliver binding resolutions of trade disputes. Nor can it guarantee the right to appellate review. New appointments to the WTO's Appellate Body are blocked." This is due to the US blocking appointments to the Appellate Body. Basically the US does not want WTO rules to be binding, and want to be able to invoke national security to override any WTO rule without having this permit any kind of trade measures in response. Edit: I don't think this is necessarily terrible. The MFN rule is a problem for countries that form close associations in trade blocks, like the EU, so its destruction is probably good.

amou234 3y ago

Xiaomi isn't dumping (yet), but BYD is, and US is already keenly aware of Chinese dumping of electric vehicles years ago, that's why US currently has the 25 percent tax on Chinese made autos that Trump started in 2018, and Biden has continued since [1]. And that has so far prevented BYD and its Chinese EV peers (90 makers so far, but looking like 2-3 bankruptcy each month) from entering US market. Republican lawmakers and Trump are also looking to apply a 100% tariffs [2] Europe, the slow hare to US's rabbit, finally woke up in 2023, but just barely. They kicked off an inquiry into tariffs on Chinese EV vehicles in October 2023, and would take up to a year to finish [3]. These tariffs looks to be retroactive, as they have started requiring Chinese EV vehicles to be registered [4]. Europe, albeit slow witted, probably isn't going to willingly allow China to kill its own car industry, especially since China is actively helping Russia in attacking Europe. [1] https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-chinese-ev-byd-battery-detroit https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-c... [2] https://fortune.com/2024/03/16/trump-100-tariff-for-cars-made-in-mexico-by-chinese-firms/ https://fortune.com/2024/03/16/trump-100-tariff-for-cars-mad... [3] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsidy-investigation-into-chinese-electric-vehicles-2023-09-13/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsid... [4] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-moves-slap-retroactive-tariffs-093000980.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-moves-slap-retroactive-tar...