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> If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? What? Does software development ju

> If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? What? Does software development just go away if you respect your users? Do people not want 3rd-party Mastodon or Matrix clients just because the orgs aren't running advertisements on their servers? Is the idea that I install Linux and everything just magically works because Linus isn't trying to sell me something? Building services that respect users is still work. It's still a thing that people can help with and support, either directly or through 3rd-party tooling and extensions.

andsoitis 3y ago
> Do people not want 3rd-party Mastodon or Matrix clients No, there isn't a reasonably sized market for many 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix clients.
- Bjartr 3y ago
  What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? Projects that lack a reasonably sized market are fine, but their impact will be confined. It is a tradeoff you choose to make. > More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation. Because if you want to have an impact, you should choose where and how to spend your time. You should pour a different amount of effort and resources into doing something for 1 person vs. 800 people vs. 1,000,000.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Bjartr 3y ago
      Was impact something I missed that was already in this discussion?
- tentacleuno 3y ago
  For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element. Which client do you use the majority of the time?
    - danShumway 3y ago
      Fluffychat
      - andsoitis 3y ago
        Anything missing from it that you wish it had? Or something it has that you would prefer if it were gone?
        danShumway 3y ago
        Video calls are a big missing feature, that's one of the only reasons I have an alternative installed alongside it. From what I've heard, the devs have said that the reason why native audio/video calls aren't planned literally just comes down to complexity and the maintenance cost. Matrix has been focusing more recently on trying to break some core functionality out into modules that can be imported -- encryption being the biggest example of this. Movement in that direction for video/audio would be a big deal. It's not just that Fluffychat needs help getting video working -- that would only leave them with another chunk of code to maintain. Ideally, they should be able to import a common library for this, but as far as I know, none exists that's usable for their needs. Matrix video calls are a good example of this kind of ecosystem need in general -- Element had video calls before the spec actually supported video... because it used a Jitsi plugin. And that 3rd-party offering bought time for the spec authors to come up with more robust native support. The problem is that 3rd-party clients offering the same support is still wildly complicated. There's a lot of room for improvement there.
- throw310324 3y ago
  [flagged]
- danShumway 3y ago
  This is silly, of course there is. There's observably a larger market for 3rd-party Mastodon and Matrix clients than there is for a Nebula filtering tool. Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? Have you heard of Blender? This is just straight-up silly, I don't know what else to say about it. FOSS projects and platforms have the same exact support and community needs as any proprietary service does.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: a) being honest with oneself and learning from failure (they call their project a "big success") b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience.
    - danShumway 3y ago
      > No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: You've edited your comment since it was originally posted, but as a reminder, this is what I was responding to: > If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? Which is a pointedly ridiculous thing to say. No, you were not calling on the author to be more ambitious, this is silly. --- > b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience. Donation of time and effort to make platforms more attractive that you are ethically aligned with is not just "noise in a crowded space". As if FOSS tooling was a crowded space!! These projects are desperate for volunteers, and lack of developer time and resources is one of the biggest handicaps that these projects often face. It is unquestionably valuable for people to volunteer effort in this direction. It might not be flashy, it might not give you a giant userbase. But some people have different metrics of success than that, and high-impact activities often aren't flashy. You bring up building new projects as an alternative to donating to existing efforts. Yeah, that sounds very attractive and flashy, but there are a half-dozen FOSS platform alternatives to every proprietary service and we don't actually need more of them. What we need is for people to focus on a couple that already exist and make them as good as possible. It's less sexy, but it matters more.
- ruined 3y ago
  i am pretty sure most people use third-party mastodon clients, if you're talking about apps. they didn't even have a first-party client until recently.

andsoitis 3y ago

> Do people not want 3rd-party Mastodon or Matrix clients No, there isn't a reasonably sized market for many 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix clients.

Bjartr 3y ago
What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? Projects that lack a reasonably sized market are fine, but their impact will be confined. It is a tradeoff you choose to make. > More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation. Because if you want to have an impact, you should choose where and how to spend your time. You should pour a different amount of effort and resources into doing something for 1 person vs. 800 people vs. 1,000,000.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Bjartr 3y ago
    Was impact something I missed that was already in this discussion?
tentacleuno 3y ago
For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element. Which client do you use the majority of the time?
  - danShumway 3y ago
    Fluffychat
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      Anything missing from it that you wish it had? Or something it has that you would prefer if it were gone?
      - danShumway 3y ago
        Video calls are a big missing feature, that's one of the only reasons I have an alternative installed alongside it. From what I've heard, the devs have said that the reason why native audio/video calls aren't planned literally just comes down to complexity and the maintenance cost. Matrix has been focusing more recently on trying to break some core functionality out into modules that can be imported -- encryption being the biggest example of this. Movement in that direction for video/audio would be a big deal. It's not just that Fluffychat needs help getting video working -- that would only leave them with another chunk of code to maintain. Ideally, they should be able to import a common library for this, but as far as I know, none exists that's usable for their needs. Matrix video calls are a good example of this kind of ecosystem need in general -- Element had video calls before the spec actually supported video... because it used a Jitsi plugin. And that 3rd-party offering bought time for the spec authors to come up with more robust native support. The problem is that 3rd-party clients offering the same support is still wildly complicated. There's a lot of room for improvement there.
throw310324 3y ago
[flagged]
danShumway 3y ago
This is silly, of course there is. There's observably a larger market for 3rd-party Mastodon and Matrix clients than there is for a Nebula filtering tool. Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? Have you heard of Blender? This is just straight-up silly, I don't know what else to say about it. FOSS projects and platforms have the same exact support and community needs as any proprietary service does.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: a) being honest with oneself and learning from failure (they call their project a "big success") b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience.
  - danShumway 3y ago
    > No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: You've edited your comment since it was originally posted, but as a reminder, this is what I was responding to: > If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? Which is a pointedly ridiculous thing to say. No, you were not calling on the author to be more ambitious, this is silly. --- > b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience. Donation of time and effort to make platforms more attractive that you are ethically aligned with is not just "noise in a crowded space". As if FOSS tooling was a crowded space!! These projects are desperate for volunteers, and lack of developer time and resources is one of the biggest handicaps that these projects often face. It is unquestionably valuable for people to volunteer effort in this direction. It might not be flashy, it might not give you a giant userbase. But some people have different metrics of success than that, and high-impact activities often aren't flashy. You bring up building new projects as an alternative to donating to existing efforts. Yeah, that sounds very attractive and flashy, but there are a half-dozen FOSS platform alternatives to every proprietary service and we don't actually need more of them. What we need is for people to focus on a couple that already exist and make them as good as possible. It's less sexy, but it matters more.
ruined 3y ago
i am pretty sure most people use third-party mastodon clients, if you're talking about apps. they didn't even have a first-party client until recently.