6 ms·

I have to applaud taking even "failed" projects serious enough to come up with a reasonable exit plan (unlike some large companies).

by crest 3y ago

andsoitis 3y ago
[flagged]
- danShumway 3y ago
  > If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? What? Does software development just go away if you respect your users? Do people not want 3rd-party Mastodon or Matrix clients just because the orgs aren't running advertisements on their servers? Is the idea that I install Linux and everything just magically works because Linus isn't trying to sell me something? Building services that respect users is still work. It's still a thing that people can help with and support, either directly or through 3rd-party tooling and extensions.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > Do people not want 3rd-party Mastodon or Matrix clients No, there isn't a reasonably sized market for many 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix clients.
    - Bjartr 3y ago
      What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation.
      - andsoitis 3y ago
        > What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? Projects that lack a reasonably sized market are fine, but their impact will be confined. It is a tradeoff you choose to make. > More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation. Because if you want to have an impact, you should choose where and how to spend your time. You should pour a different amount of effort and resources into doing something for 1 person vs. 800 people vs. 1,000,000.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        Bjartr 3y ago
        Was impact something I missed that was already in this discussion?
    - tentacleuno 3y ago
      For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element.
      - andsoitis 3y ago
        > For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element. Which client do you use the majority of the time?
        danShumway 3y ago
        Fluffychat
        andsoitis 3y ago
        Anything missing from it that you wish it had? Or something it has that you would prefer if it were gone?
        danShumway 3y ago
        Video calls are a big missing feature, that's one of the only reasons I have an alternative installed alongside it. From what I've heard, the devs have said that the reason why native audio/video calls aren't planned literally just comes down to complexity and the maintenance cost. Matrix has been focusing more recently on trying to break some core functionality out into modules that can be imported -- encryption being the biggest example of this. Movement in that direction for video/audio would be a big deal. It's not just that Fluffychat needs help getting video working -- that would only leave them with another chunk of code to maintain. Ideally, they should be able to import a common library for this, but as far as I know, none exists that's usable for their needs. Matrix video calls are a good example of this kind of ecosystem need in general -- Element had video calls before the spec actually supported video... because it used a Jitsi plugin. And that 3rd-party offering bought time for the spec authors to come up with more robust native support. The problem is that 3rd-party clients offering the same support is still wildly complicated. There's a lot of room for improvement there.
    - throw310324 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - danShumway 3y ago
      This is silly, of course there is. There's observably a larger market for 3rd-party Mastodon and Matrix clients than there is for a Nebula filtering tool. Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? Have you heard of Blender? This is just straight-up silly, I don't know what else to say about it. FOSS projects and platforms have the same exact support and community needs as any proprietary service does.
      - andsoitis 3y ago
        > Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: a) being honest with oneself and learning from failure (they call their project a "big success") b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience.
        danShumway 3y ago
        > No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: You've edited your comment since it was originally posted, but as a reminder, this is what I was responding to: > If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? Which is a pointedly ridiculous thing to say. No, you were not calling on the author to be more ambitious, this is silly. --- > b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience. Donation of time and effort to make platforms more attractive that you are ethically aligned with is not just "noise in a crowded space". As if FOSS tooling was a crowded space!! These projects are desperate for volunteers, and lack of developer time and resources is one of the biggest handicaps that these projects often face. It is unquestionably valuable for people to volunteer effort in this direction. It might not be flashy, it might not give you a giant userbase. But some people have different metrics of success than that, and high-impact activities often aren't flashy. You bring up building new projects as an alternative to donating to existing efforts. Yeah, that sounds very attractive and flashy, but there are a half-dozen FOSS platform alternatives to every proprietary service and we don't actually need more of them. What we need is for people to focus on a couple that already exist and make them as good as possible. It's less sexy, but it matters more.
    - ruined 3y ago
      i am pretty sure most people use third-party mastodon clients, if you're talking about apps. they didn't even have a first-party client until recently.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  This comment reminds me of another comment I read some years back on this site. There was discussion about newsletters/mail advertising and one of the writers of such software that power it chimed in. All of the "legitimate" mailers have a disclaimer that says it can take up to X number of days before the changes take effect, which normal developers were obviously calling BS on. The commenter said it wasn't intentionally written to be slow at his company but they deal with massive lists. But then the commenter said his company could probably make it faster or near instantaneous but when a user indicates that they want to unsubscribe from their spam they have gone from a potential source of revenue to being valued at zero. He complained that it made no sense to make the unsubscriber's lives better by immediately unsubscribing them instead of focusing his time on trying to make sure the spam got out to more people. It was a thoughtful, rational comment that made me want to be a better developer instead of scum that makes the world worse. I applaud the project author for not being scum. Edit: andsoitis edited his comment after being downvoted. Here is the original reply I replied to. " > I have to applaud taking even "failed" projects serious enough to come up with a reasonable exit plan (unlike some large companies). That's time the author will never get back that they could have spent on their new mission. Maybe it only took them 5 minutes, but I doubt it. Even if it was no time, it reveals a mental model that I think will continue to lead to their frustration. When they say "This project is making the commercial web more bearable, but I'd rather spend my energy on making the non-commercial web more attractive." it is saying they would rather spend time making their 800 users get a soft landing spot for a product that the author has said is futile, than spend their energy on their new mission. The next sentence I think is reveals more: "I want to support communities and applications that respect their users and value what we have to say." If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? "
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > I applaud the project author for not being scum. If I were a user of their project, which is free mind you, and they stopped it without a decent shutdown plan because after 2 years they could only get 800 users and they would rather use their life in a different way, I would not think of them as scum. To think someone like that is scum would be pretty toxic in my book.
- jimmySixDOF 3y ago
  Charming outlook. I can't imagine that mental model leads to any frustration except it seems when you are compelled to offer your hard earned course correcting unsolicited advice (and without compensation no less). Here's some advice too - if you want to be edgy don't point it at someone actually out in the arena closing off with the same self-respect and craftsmenship they more than likely took into it thinking it was something that needed doing. Honestly your statements remind me of this "Jigar Kumar" character in the xz fiasco [1] which is a perfect case study of the thankless expectations involved with maintaining an open source project that probably also started out of the sheer belief that it was a useful idea that needed doing. It's people like them who built the web and not just to click farm for attention measurements if you can believe that. Without the long tail of value those people still contribute free of charge to the world there would be a lot less product market fit for people like you to chase after. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879710
- daedrdev 3y ago
  Reputation has some value. If the author tries and make a new product, perhaps some people will be more inclined to try it with the belief that they won't be left out to dry if it fails like most other products.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    People also seem to forget that your reputation inside of your own head matters for a lot of people. People have different ways to frame or reframe past failures, and to get past them. Besides, begrudging people time spent on community sounds like something your last shitty manager would do. Can’t tell if GP is shitty manager material or has Stockholm Syndrome from them. Odds favor the latter.
    - gorlilla 3y ago
      The invisible audience is the worst.
      - hinkley 3y ago
        There is a comedy (romcom?) where a lawyer is explaining some terrible thing to the main characters and the woman looks at him in disgust and says, “how do you sleep at night?” The antagonist takes the question literally, and cheerfully answers her with, “white noise machine!”
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- idontknowifican 3y ago
  i can appreciate how hard you worked on this, it is an achievement in aggrandizing to provide this feedback. i hope your friends and family truly appreciate the perfection of your worldview, and can move fully to your simple answers
- schiffern 3y ago
  It sounds like you're the sort of person who really needs to hear this: "Act that you use humanity—whether in your own person or in the person of any other—always at the same time as an end, and never merely as a means." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nz0iaNvVpE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nz0iaNvVpE
- chrisoverzero 3y ago
  Someone once said here on Hacker News: Before you say anything, ask yourself 1) Does this need to be said? 2) Does this need to be said by me? 3) Does this need to be said by me, now? I hope you’ll take their sage advice in the future: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39859458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39859458

I have to applaud taking even "failed" projects serious enough to come up with a reasonable exit plan (unlike some large companies).

by crest 3y ago

I have to applaud taking even "failed" projects serious enough to come up with a reasonable exit plan (unlike some large companies).

andsoitis 3y ago

[flagged]

danShumway 3y ago
> If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? What? Does software development just go away if you respect your users? Do people not want 3rd-party Mastodon or Matrix clients just because the orgs aren't running advertisements on their servers? Is the idea that I install Linux and everything just magically works because Linus isn't trying to sell me something? Building services that respect users is still work. It's still a thing that people can help with and support, either directly or through 3rd-party tooling and extensions.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > Do people not want 3rd-party Mastodon or Matrix clients No, there isn't a reasonably sized market for many 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix clients.
  - Bjartr 3y ago
    What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      > What does "reasonably sized market" mean in this context, and what does it imply about projects that lack them? Projects that lack a reasonably sized market are fine, but their impact will be confined. It is a tradeoff you choose to make. > More specifically, why does there being some people that want those things mean something other than some people want those things? It almost sounds like you're trying to have a different conversation. Because if you want to have an impact, you should choose where and how to spend your time. You should pour a different amount of effort and resources into doing something for 1 person vs. 800 people vs. 1,000,000.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Bjartr 3y ago
        Was impact something I missed that was already in this discussion?
  - tentacleuno 3y ago
    For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      > For Matrix, there definitely is. Some of the third-party clients are just plain better than Element. Which client do you use the majority of the time?
      - danShumway 3y ago
        Fluffychat
        andsoitis 3y ago
        Anything missing from it that you wish it had? Or something it has that you would prefer if it were gone?
        danShumway 3y ago
        Video calls are a big missing feature, that's one of the only reasons I have an alternative installed alongside it. From what I've heard, the devs have said that the reason why native audio/video calls aren't planned literally just comes down to complexity and the maintenance cost. Matrix has been focusing more recently on trying to break some core functionality out into modules that can be imported -- encryption being the biggest example of this. Movement in that direction for video/audio would be a big deal. It's not just that Fluffychat needs help getting video working -- that would only leave them with another chunk of code to maintain. Ideally, they should be able to import a common library for this, but as far as I know, none exists that's usable for their needs. Matrix video calls are a good example of this kind of ecosystem need in general -- Element had video calls before the spec actually supported video... because it used a Jitsi plugin. And that 3rd-party offering bought time for the spec authors to come up with more robust native support. The problem is that 3rd-party clients offering the same support is still wildly complicated. There's a lot of room for improvement there.
  - throw310324 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - danShumway 3y ago
    This is silly, of course there is. There's observably a larger market for 3rd-party Mastodon and Matrix clients than there is for a Nebula filtering tool. Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? Have you heard of Blender? This is just straight-up silly, I don't know what else to say about it. FOSS projects and platforms have the same exact support and community needs as any proprietary service does.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      > Also, are you seriously going to argue this? Are you seriously going to double down on the idea that services that respect their users don't need development help or tooling support or developer ecosystems? No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: a) being honest with oneself and learning from failure (they call their project a "big success") b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience.
      - danShumway 3y ago
        > No, I'm doubling down on challenging the author to be more audacious: You've edited your comment since it was originally posted, but as a reminder, this is what I was responding to: > If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? Which is a pointedly ridiculous thing to say. No, you were not calling on the author to be more ambitious, this is silly. --- > b) be more ambitious - building or contributing to yet another 3rd party Mastodon or Matrix client (both?) is just more noise in a crowded space going after a relatively small audience. Donation of time and effort to make platforms more attractive that you are ethically aligned with is not just "noise in a crowded space". As if FOSS tooling was a crowded space!! These projects are desperate for volunteers, and lack of developer time and resources is one of the biggest handicaps that these projects often face. It is unquestionably valuable for people to volunteer effort in this direction. It might not be flashy, it might not give you a giant userbase. But some people have different metrics of success than that, and high-impact activities often aren't flashy. You bring up building new projects as an alternative to donating to existing efforts. Yeah, that sounds very attractive and flashy, but there are a half-dozen FOSS platform alternatives to every proprietary service and we don't actually need more of them. What we need is for people to focus on a couple that already exist and make them as good as possible. It's less sexy, but it matters more.
  - ruined 3y ago
    i am pretty sure most people use third-party mastodon clients, if you're talking about apps. they didn't even have a first-party client until recently.
Larrikin 3y ago
This comment reminds me of another comment I read some years back on this site. There was discussion about newsletters/mail advertising and one of the writers of such software that power it chimed in. All of the "legitimate" mailers have a disclaimer that says it can take up to X number of days before the changes take effect, which normal developers were obviously calling BS on. The commenter said it wasn't intentionally written to be slow at his company but they deal with massive lists. But then the commenter said his company could probably make it faster or near instantaneous but when a user indicates that they want to unsubscribe from their spam they have gone from a potential source of revenue to being valued at zero. He complained that it made no sense to make the unsubscriber's lives better by immediately unsubscribing them instead of focusing his time on trying to make sure the spam got out to more people. It was a thoughtful, rational comment that made me want to be a better developer instead of scum that makes the world worse. I applaud the project author for not being scum. Edit: andsoitis edited his comment after being downvoted. Here is the original reply I replied to. " > I have to applaud taking even "failed" projects serious enough to come up with a reasonable exit plan (unlike some large companies). That's time the author will never get back that they could have spent on their new mission. Maybe it only took them 5 minutes, but I doubt it. Even if it was no time, it reveals a mental model that I think will continue to lead to their frustration. When they say "This project is making the commercial web more bearable, but I'd rather spend my energy on making the non-commercial web more attractive." it is saying they would rather spend time making their 800 users get a soft landing spot for a product that the author has said is futile, than spend their energy on their new mission. The next sentence I think is reveals more: "I want to support communities and applications that respect their users and value what we have to say." If those communities and apps already respect their users, then do they need this author? What difference would they make? "
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > I applaud the project author for not being scum. If I were a user of their project, which is free mind you, and they stopped it without a decent shutdown plan because after 2 years they could only get 800 users and they would rather use their life in a different way, I would not think of them as scum. To think someone like that is scum would be pretty toxic in my book.
jimmySixDOF 3y ago
Charming outlook. I can't imagine that mental model leads to any frustration except it seems when you are compelled to offer your hard earned course correcting unsolicited advice (and without compensation no less). Here's some advice too - if you want to be edgy don't point it at someone actually out in the arena closing off with the same self-respect and craftsmenship they more than likely took into it thinking it was something that needed doing. Honestly your statements remind me of this "Jigar Kumar" character in the xz fiasco [1] which is a perfect case study of the thankless expectations involved with maintaining an open source project that probably also started out of the sheer belief that it was a useful idea that needed doing. It's people like them who built the web and not just to click farm for attention measurements if you can believe that. Without the long tail of value those people still contribute free of charge to the world there would be a lot less product market fit for people like you to chase after. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879710
daedrdev 3y ago
Reputation has some value. If the author tries and make a new product, perhaps some people will be more inclined to try it with the belief that they won't be left out to dry if it fails like most other products.
- hinkley 3y ago
  People also seem to forget that your reputation inside of your own head matters for a lot of people. People have different ways to frame or reframe past failures, and to get past them. Besides, begrudging people time spent on community sounds like something your last shitty manager would do. Can’t tell if GP is shitty manager material or has Stockholm Syndrome from them. Odds favor the latter.
  - gorlilla 3y ago
    The invisible audience is the worst.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      There is a comedy (romcom?) where a lawyer is explaining some terrible thing to the main characters and the woman looks at him in disgust and says, “how do you sleep at night?” The antagonist takes the question literally, and cheerfully answers her with, “white noise machine!”
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
idontknowifican 3y ago
i can appreciate how hard you worked on this, it is an achievement in aggrandizing to provide this feedback. i hope your friends and family truly appreciate the perfection of your worldview, and can move fully to your simple answers
schiffern 3y ago
It sounds like you're the sort of person who really needs to hear this: "Act that you use humanity—whether in your own person or in the person of any other—always at the same time as an end, and never merely as a means." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nz0iaNvVpE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nz0iaNvVpE
chrisoverzero 3y ago
Someone once said here on Hacker News: Before you say anything, ask yourself 1) Does this need to be said? 2) Does this need to be said by me? 3) Does this need to be said by me, now? I hope you’ll take their sage advice in the future: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39859458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39859458