7 ms·

Isn't this known since 2018? https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to-watch-snapchat-and-whatsapp https://mashable.com/article/facebook-use

by _ink_ 3y ago

Isn't this known since 2018? https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to-watch-snapchat-and-whatsapp https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to...

quitit 3y ago
Yes it's old news(1) but it has come up again in numerous HN and reddit posts for a few reasons (if you flick through HN you'll see various versions of this story holding lower ranks.) Also noteworthy is that Google were also doing something similar at the time, both were side-stepping Apple's privacy protections in iOS by using enterprise certificates that allowed the side-loading of apps without Apple's overview. In response Apple more thoroughly restricted how these certificates can be used. Interestingly I've noticed in the DMA threads people suggesting that a company exploiting side-loading to dodge Apple's privacy protections was nothing more than fear mongering. As if this is a red line developers won't cross. To me, it's wild to think that people on HN don't know about this relatively recent history and are so naive to think that these protections were just pulled out of the air to frustrate developers, and not a reaction to an on-going arms war against consumer's right to privacy. (1) https://www.extremetech.com/internet/284770-apple-kills-facebooks-internal-ios-apps-after-latest-privacy-blunder https://www.extremetech.com/internet/284770-apple-kills-face...
- xvector 3y ago
  > To me, it's wild to think that people on HN don't know about this relatively recent history and are so naive to think that these protections were just pulled out of the air to frustrate developers, IMO we have modern journalism to thank for this sort of thing. People are so misinformed with rage bait articles that they push against policies in their own interest. But if anyone dare suggest enforcing some minimum level of journalistic ethics they'll get attacked because somehow journalists have painted themselves as some sort of unassailable paragon of righteousness.
  - quitit 3y ago
    Bingo. It's easy to pay for influence, especially if one can spin a story for clicks. I see a lot of cheerleading and parroted talking points against the interests of developers, particularly small and independent developers. A lot of the changes lobbied for by large developers give them an insurmountable pricing and competitive advantage over small developers and startups, yet I don't see much consideration here for that, nor the wishes of bona fide consumers. Epic is particularly barefaced here, since they claim they are fighting for developers, when their proposals are not altruistic. Each clearly puts them at an advantage over smaller developers and consumers. Do we have such a short memory that we forget that this is the same Epic that settled with the FTC for using dark patterns and violating childrens' privacy for the purpose of tricking kids into accidental Fortnite purchases.(1) That was only 15 months ago. While I'd expect reddit to be less informed, I'm not so charitable with HN: it's a forum where the bulk of participants claim to be developers. (1) https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/fortnite-video-game-maker-epic-games-pay-more-half-billion-dollars-over-ftc-allegations https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/...
    - fragmede 3y ago
      it's almost as if there wasn’t an ethics class in the CS majors’ required courses!
      - xvector 3y ago
        Actually most CS majors require ethics courses. I've met very few developers that don't care about ethics, especially when they work on something product facing. We've seen entire teams at Google quit or refuse to implement something, etc. Meanwhile in journalism, ethics is a strong part of the course structure but you see countless journalists writing poorly researched ragebait articles for clicks. The "programmers don't know ethics" meme is just that, a meme. The fact that there even is a required ethics course in most universities is far more than you can say for most other majors. Nearly every single programmer knows about Therac-25, I'd wager most graduates today are also learning about MCAS, etc.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  The problem is that it’s both. Apple intentionally obfuscates the two: they make privacy changes and then mix anticompetitive actions into it too, and then labels both under “security”. This harms their overall argument.
  - quitit 3y ago
    Give an example.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      Almost all public statements about App Store review security, for example

by _ink_ 3y ago

Isn't this known since 2018? https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to-watch-snapchat-and-whatsapp https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to...

quitit 3y ago

Yes it's old news(1) but it has come up again in numerous HN and reddit posts for a few reasons (if you flick through HN you'll see various versions of this story holding lower ranks.) Also noteworthy is that Google were also doing something similar at the time, both were side-stepping Apple's privacy protections in iOS by using enterprise certificates that allowed the side-loading of apps without Apple's overview. In response Apple more thoroughly restricted how these certificates can be used. Interestingly I've noticed in the DMA threads people suggesting that a company exploiting side-loading to dodge Apple's privacy protections was nothing more than fear mongering. As if this is a red line developers won't cross. To me, it's wild to think that people on HN don't know about this relatively recent history and are so naive to think that these protections were just pulled out of the air to frustrate developers, and not a reaction to an on-going arms war against consumer's right to privacy. (1) https://www.extremetech.com/internet/284770-apple-kills-facebooks-internal-ios-apps-after-latest-privacy-blunder https://www.extremetech.com/internet/284770-apple-kills-face...

xvector 3y ago
> To me, it's wild to think that people on HN don't know about this relatively recent history and are so naive to think that these protections were just pulled out of the air to frustrate developers, IMO we have modern journalism to thank for this sort of thing. People are so misinformed with rage bait articles that they push against policies in their own interest. But if anyone dare suggest enforcing some minimum level of journalistic ethics they'll get attacked because somehow journalists have painted themselves as some sort of unassailable paragon of righteousness.
- quitit 3y ago
  Bingo. It's easy to pay for influence, especially if one can spin a story for clicks. I see a lot of cheerleading and parroted talking points against the interests of developers, particularly small and independent developers. A lot of the changes lobbied for by large developers give them an insurmountable pricing and competitive advantage over small developers and startups, yet I don't see much consideration here for that, nor the wishes of bona fide consumers. Epic is particularly barefaced here, since they claim they are fighting for developers, when their proposals are not altruistic. Each clearly puts them at an advantage over smaller developers and consumers. Do we have such a short memory that we forget that this is the same Epic that settled with the FTC for using dark patterns and violating childrens' privacy for the purpose of tricking kids into accidental Fortnite purchases.(1) That was only 15 months ago. While I'd expect reddit to be less informed, I'm not so charitable with HN: it's a forum where the bulk of participants claim to be developers. (1) https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/fortnite-video-game-maker-epic-games-pay-more-half-billion-dollars-over-ftc-allegations https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/...
  - fragmede 3y ago
    it's almost as if there wasn’t an ethics class in the CS majors’ required courses!
    - xvector 3y ago
      Actually most CS majors require ethics courses. I've met very few developers that don't care about ethics, especially when they work on something product facing. We've seen entire teams at Google quit or refuse to implement something, etc. Meanwhile in journalism, ethics is a strong part of the course structure but you see countless journalists writing poorly researched ragebait articles for clicks. The "programmers don't know ethics" meme is just that, a meme. The fact that there even is a required ethics course in most universities is far more than you can say for most other majors. Nearly every single programmer knows about Therac-25, I'd wager most graduates today are also learning about MCAS, etc.
saagarjha 3y ago
The problem is that it’s both. Apple intentionally obfuscates the two: they make privacy changes and then mix anticompetitive actions into it too, and then labels both under “security”. This harms their overall argument.
- quitit 3y ago
  Give an example.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    Almost all public statements about App Store review security, for example