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Yes BYDs and Chinese made Tesla's etc. aren't really in the USA. I live in the USA but am in Australia right now where Chinese made electric cars (including the

Yes BYDs and Chinese made Tesla's etc. aren't really in the USA. I live in the USA but am in Australia right now where Chinese made electric cars (including the Chinese built Teslas) are the only electric cars you can buy. BYD is becoming a common brand and Tesla is 100% Chinese made here. I think people in the US and the Euro nations are in for a shock once they realize China has completely stolen the market and effectively their brands in third party nations.

alliao 3y ago
I'm gonna steal this one, instead of third world we're now third party nations
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  The term "third world" did originally mean "third party" nations, as in nations not aligned with the West or the communist/socialist block, but over time it somehow became associated only with impoverished nations which were also the third party nations during the cold war.
Rinzler89 3y ago
>I think people in the US and the Euro nations are in for a shock The US buried its auto industry a long time ago and isn't a big slice of their economy anymore, as they have services, banking and tech as the big drivers of their economy, but for some EU countries, especially Germany and central-eastern Europe where the Automotive industry provides a lot of middle class jobs, it will be a bloodbath. I used to work in the German automotive scene about a decade ago and left, but when I talk to my mates still active in the industry the news they get from management is grim. At a town hall meeting (major German OEM) they were recently told due to increased pressure from Chinese competition they'll have to deliver projects "quicker and cheaper than before", whatever that means, since they told me there's no way it can be done faster and cheaper, as for a new project they spent 2 months just to deiced which version control they should use as the younger devs wanted to use git while the older devs close to retirement wanted to stick to clearcase. I expect the EU will introduce hefty tariffs on Chinese EVs when the local automakers will lobby for it to protect local jobs, but hardcore protectionism long term only ensure your domestic industry lags behind technologically and falls behind globally. Luxury brands like Bentley, Porsche, Lambo, etc will be fine, but the ones for Average Joe will have a rough time competing.
- johanvts 3y ago
  I still think the EU brands have a chance. The ID2 has lots of potential and the eC3 is a price leader being made in EU. The new scenic and the Renault 5 also seem much more appealing than the BYD cars.
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    There's the issue of profitability. Chinese labor is cheaper than EU labor. Yes, the EU auto industry can in theory compete with Chinese manufacturers, but if you enter a race to the bottom with Chinese companies, you can't win, unless you count making razor thin profits and paying crap wages to your workers as "winning". Mercedes's factory in Hungary is already complaining about a labor shortage and it's not like they're wages were already super high to begin with, which is most likely why they have that labor shortage to begin with. You can't drive wages even lower than that to compete with China.
    - johanvts 3y ago
      Sure, but according to google labour costs are less than 10% in current cars, probably even less in the future.
- thfuran 3y ago
  >there's no way it can be done faster and cheaper, as for a new project they spent 2 months just to deiced which version control they should use That sounds like they have plenty of room to do things more quickly.
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    It's not like people were not still doing work/coding during that time, it's just that they're already working at max capacity (40h/week) and can't deliver more output, unless the entire management process gets streamlined but that's nearly impossible in large established German companies where a lot of projects are done by slow processes spanning decades of Iterative development, similar to the aero industry, and are now being attacked by young auto companies following agile practices. Ideally they should spin off new SW projects into separate start-up entities built from the ground up on modern practices instead of rolling ancient projects and convincing old workers to update their skills to enter new projects.. oh wait they already tried that and failed miserably[1] The problem with automotive development in Germany(and everywhere else I think) is that it's not entirely engineering driven by those in the trenches who see and know where the speedbumps are but by clueless MBAs with PhDs from fancy universities who have no idea what's going on and just brute force the "conjoined triangles of success" everywhere hoping it works. [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-wants-cut-2000-jobs-cariad-unit-manager-magazin-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volksw...
kwhitefoot 3y ago
We've been buying Chinese EVs for a long time in Norway in the form of MGs and Polestars, and in the last year or two BYD. It's not the countries but the big lazy car manufacturers that are likely to have problems. But I doubt that any of this is news to them.

alliao 3y ago

I'm gonna steal this one, instead of third world we're now third party nations

Rinzler89 3y ago
The term "third world" did originally mean "third party" nations, as in nations not aligned with the West or the communist/socialist block, but over time it somehow became associated only with impoverished nations which were also the third party nations during the cold war.

Rinzler89 3y ago

>I think people in the US and the Euro nations are in for a shock The US buried its auto industry a long time ago and isn't a big slice of their economy anymore, as they have services, banking and tech as the big drivers of their economy, but for some EU countries, especially Germany and central-eastern Europe where the Automotive industry provides a lot of middle class jobs, it will be a bloodbath. I used to work in the German automotive scene about a decade ago and left, but when I talk to my mates still active in the industry the news they get from management is grim. At a town hall meeting (major German OEM) they were recently told due to increased pressure from Chinese competition they'll have to deliver projects "quicker and cheaper than before", whatever that means, since they told me there's no way it can be done faster and cheaper, as for a new project they spent 2 months just to deiced which version control they should use as the younger devs wanted to use git while the older devs close to retirement wanted to stick to clearcase. I expect the EU will introduce hefty tariffs on Chinese EVs when the local automakers will lobby for it to protect local jobs, but hardcore protectionism long term only ensure your domestic industry lags behind technologically and falls behind globally. Luxury brands like Bentley, Porsche, Lambo, etc will be fine, but the ones for Average Joe will have a rough time competing.

johanvts 3y ago
I still think the EU brands have a chance. The ID2 has lots of potential and the eC3 is a price leader being made in EU. The new scenic and the Renault 5 also seem much more appealing than the BYD cars.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  There's the issue of profitability. Chinese labor is cheaper than EU labor. Yes, the EU auto industry can in theory compete with Chinese manufacturers, but if you enter a race to the bottom with Chinese companies, you can't win, unless you count making razor thin profits and paying crap wages to your workers as "winning". Mercedes's factory in Hungary is already complaining about a labor shortage and it's not like they're wages were already super high to begin with, which is most likely why they have that labor shortage to begin with. You can't drive wages even lower than that to compete with China.
  - johanvts 3y ago
    Sure, but according to google labour costs are less than 10% in current cars, probably even less in the future.
thfuran 3y ago
>there's no way it can be done faster and cheaper, as for a new project they spent 2 months just to deiced which version control they should use That sounds like they have plenty of room to do things more quickly.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  It's not like people were not still doing work/coding during that time, it's just that they're already working at max capacity (40h/week) and can't deliver more output, unless the entire management process gets streamlined but that's nearly impossible in large established German companies where a lot of projects are done by slow processes spanning decades of Iterative development, similar to the aero industry, and are now being attacked by young auto companies following agile practices. Ideally they should spin off new SW projects into separate start-up entities built from the ground up on modern practices instead of rolling ancient projects and convincing old workers to update their skills to enter new projects.. oh wait they already tried that and failed miserably[1] The problem with automotive development in Germany(and everywhere else I think) is that it's not entirely engineering driven by those in the trenches who see and know where the speedbumps are but by clueless MBAs with PhDs from fancy universities who have no idea what's going on and just brute force the "conjoined triangles of success" everywhere hoping it works. [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-wants-cut-2000-jobs-cariad-unit-manager-magazin-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volksw...

kwhitefoot 3y ago

We've been buying Chinese EVs for a long time in Norway in the form of MGs and Polestars, and in the last year or two BYD. It's not the countries but the big lazy car manufacturers that are likely to have problems. But I doubt that any of this is news to them.