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Hmm, good perspective. But doesn’t this seem to be a no true Scotsman fallacy? If you call all failed democracies not real democracies, you can write them off

Hmm, good perspective. But doesn’t this seem to be a no true Scotsman fallacy? If you call all failed democracies not real democracies, you can write them off and only focus on the successful ones. Does a corrupt and poor democracy ceases to be a democracy? I agree that democracy is the best system when implemented well. I’m just pointing out that many countries have struggled to succeed as democracies because they lack the proper mindset and culture of maintaining one.

philwelch 3y ago
I think we’re mostly in agreement here? I did say most failed democracies turn into other forms of government, which I think is broadly true. Consider Weimar Germany, Russia, and Zimbabwe as examples of this tendency. And while this is somewhat unfalsifiable, you could argue that any failed democracy that is still democratic is bound to eventually turn into another form of government eventually, or just to collapse into a completely failed state and de facto anarchy or civil war, like Haiti or Lebanon. I definitely agree that many countries aren’t really capable of being successful democracies. Lee Kwan Yew famously thought this was true of Singapore, and judging from what he did with the place I wouldn’t argue with him. You should also consider failed attempts to establish democracies, such as Afghanistan.
wolverine876 3y ago
> they lack the proper mindset and culture of maintaining one. What is your basis for saying why they failed? Maybe they were just overwhelmed by violent dictators (and, like people in the US now, by anti-democratic propaganda). Democracy works across cultures; the examples are overwhelming from Latin America to the US to S Asia to E Asia (including the most prosperous part of China, and the most prosperous city in China until the CPC took away its democracy), W Europe, E Europe, etc. The biggest obstacle to democracy is people quitting and undermining it. Our ancestors sacrificed for many generations. What are we doing to promote it, to make it work, to spread freedom to all?
- philwelch 3y ago
  > Maybe they were just overwhelmed by violent dictators Yes, that is a form of failure. And it’s not always the result of violence. German democracy failed when the chancellor of a minority government managed to make himself dictator. Russian democracy failed when Putin took over. Explain to me why, even after 20 years of help, Afghanistan couldn’t establish a democracy. I have an explanation that largely approximates to “they lack the proper mindset and culture of maintaining a democracy”, but if you reject that categorically, go ahead and provide an alternative explanation.
- blackhawkC17 3y ago
  I know it because I live in one (Nigeria). My country of 200 million+ is not under any threat from a violent dictator. The issue is terrible corruption and a culture that values irrational tribalism over democratic dialogue and cooperation. There's a reason the Middle East has no successful democracy except Israel, and that's because Israel's culture is largely Western-oriented and fit for democracy.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Nigeria hasn't done it well yet. It takes time to build those institutions and that culture. The US was not a successful democracy for many years - and is still an imperfect one now. Generations worked and built so the future generations could have something better. Democracy doesn't necessarily change people, it gives them self-determination, a mechanism for change.

philwelch 3y ago

I think we’re mostly in agreement here? I did say most failed democracies turn into other forms of government, which I think is broadly true. Consider Weimar Germany, Russia, and Zimbabwe as examples of this tendency. And while this is somewhat unfalsifiable, you could argue that any failed democracy that is still democratic is bound to eventually turn into another form of government eventually, or just to collapse into a completely failed state and de facto anarchy or civil war, like Haiti or Lebanon. I definitely agree that many countries aren’t really capable of being successful democracies. Lee Kwan Yew famously thought this was true of Singapore, and judging from what he did with the place I wouldn’t argue with him. You should also consider failed attempts to establish democracies, such as Afghanistan.

wolverine876 3y ago

> they lack the proper mindset and culture of maintaining one. What is your basis for saying why they failed? Maybe they were just overwhelmed by violent dictators (and, like people in the US now, by anti-democratic propaganda). Democracy works across cultures; the examples are overwhelming from Latin America to the US to S Asia to E Asia (including the most prosperous part of China, and the most prosperous city in China until the CPC took away its democracy), W Europe, E Europe, etc. The biggest obstacle to democracy is people quitting and undermining it. Our ancestors sacrificed for many generations. What are we doing to promote it, to make it work, to spread freedom to all?

philwelch 3y ago
> Maybe they were just overwhelmed by violent dictators Yes, that is a form of failure. And it’s not always the result of violence. German democracy failed when the chancellor of a minority government managed to make himself dictator. Russian democracy failed when Putin took over. Explain to me why, even after 20 years of help, Afghanistan couldn’t establish a democracy. I have an explanation that largely approximates to “they lack the proper mindset and culture of maintaining a democracy”, but if you reject that categorically, go ahead and provide an alternative explanation.
blackhawkC17 3y ago
I know it because I live in one (Nigeria). My country of 200 million+ is not under any threat from a violent dictator. The issue is terrible corruption and a culture that values irrational tribalism over democratic dialogue and cooperation. There's a reason the Middle East has no successful democracy except Israel, and that's because Israel's culture is largely Western-oriented and fit for democracy.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Nigeria hasn't done it well yet. It takes time to build those institutions and that culture. The US was not a successful democracy for many years - and is still an imperfect one now. Generations worked and built so the future generations could have something better. Democracy doesn't necessarily change people, it gives them self-determination, a mechanism for change.