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> The reason Rust has both Arc and Rc types for reference counting is precisely because most of the time when you need reference counting, you do not need threa

by bsder 3y ago

> The reason Rust has both Arc and Rc types for reference counting is precisely because most of the time when you need reference counting, you do not need thread safety. Hmmm, I'm curious about your use cases as this is almost precisely opposite my experience. Normally, I regard Rc as a footgun as I've always found that I'm shortly going to have to change everything to Arc.

jandrewrogers 3y ago
I almost never use atomic reference counters, when I use them at all. A major point of using thread-per-core software architectures is that it eliminates almost all atomics even in highly concurrent contexts that may require reference counting to manage resource lifetimes. In these cases, your concurrency primitive is essentially a coroutine, either with or without its own stack. You may have thousands of these executing concurrently similar to as if they were multithreaded and using locks or atomics, but the execution is always on a single thread so locks are unnecessary and atomics can be elided entirely. In the rare cases where atomics are used, there are almost always at most two threads accessing them. Basically, the only place you see atomics are the very thin and lightly accessed interfaces between threads, which are about resource control rather than true thread concurrency. I have used these types of architectures on diverse high-scale server apps. The places I’ve had to use atomic reference counters were always extremely limited and largely outside the hot path.
- bsder 3y ago
  Then why are you using Rc at all? This seems like "arenas" would be a much better match where you can reclaim everything in one fell swoop as soon as the thread finishes its task. Is the issue simply that Rust until recently didn't support memory allocators other than the standard one?
  - jandrewrogers 3y ago
    The resource management doesn't fit an arena model, that is an overly simplistic view of what is required. The resources have a lifecycle independent of the references any execution context has with them. A reference isn't ownership, it just keeps the resource from disappearing or pins it in a particular context. Memory allocations may not actually exist in memory. They can be paged to disk in user space because, frankly, the virtual memory hardware on modern CPUs is often incapable of handling large storage and when it does the performance is poor. Sure, you can do better than the default allocators in Rust and elsewhere but that is far from the only reason you might want a reference counter on a resource. DMA requires managing reference counts for threads of execution that only exist in silicon, not in software. Arenas solve none of this. The lifecycle of the resource has nothing to do with the lifecycle of the execution context of a coroutine.
kccqzy 3y ago
I use Rc inside the implementation of data structures such as persistent trees, and also to implement functionality such as Undo. The synchronization happens on a higher level.

by bsder 3y ago

jandrewrogers 3y ago

I almost never use atomic reference counters, when I use them at all. A major point of using thread-per-core software architectures is that it eliminates almost all atomics even in highly concurrent contexts that may require reference counting to manage resource lifetimes. In these cases, your concurrency primitive is essentially a coroutine, either with or without its own stack. You may have thousands of these executing concurrently similar to as if they were multithreaded and using locks or atomics, but the execution is always on a single thread so locks are unnecessary and atomics can be elided entirely. In the rare cases where atomics are used, there are almost always at most two threads accessing them. Basically, the only place you see atomics are the very thin and lightly accessed interfaces between threads, which are about resource control rather than true thread concurrency. I have used these types of architectures on diverse high-scale server apps. The places I’ve had to use atomic reference counters were always extremely limited and largely outside the hot path.

bsder 3y ago
Then why are you using Rc at all? This seems like "arenas" would be a much better match where you can reclaim everything in one fell swoop as soon as the thread finishes its task. Is the issue simply that Rust until recently didn't support memory allocators other than the standard one?
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  The resource management doesn't fit an arena model, that is an overly simplistic view of what is required. The resources have a lifecycle independent of the references any execution context has with them. A reference isn't ownership, it just keeps the resource from disappearing or pins it in a particular context. Memory allocations may not actually exist in memory. They can be paged to disk in user space because, frankly, the virtual memory hardware on modern CPUs is often incapable of handling large storage and when it does the performance is poor. Sure, you can do better than the default allocators in Rust and elsewhere but that is far from the only reason you might want a reference counter on a resource. DMA requires managing reference counts for threads of execution that only exist in silicon, not in software. Arenas solve none of this. The lifecycle of the resource has nothing to do with the lifecycle of the execution context of a coroutine.

kccqzy 3y ago

I use Rc inside the implementation of data structures such as persistent trees, and also to implement functionality such as Undo. The synchronization happens on a higher level.