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>a bit dramatic, buddy. No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met

>a bit dramatic, buddy. No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met them. That absolutely is "fraud". >You know what’s also “fraudulent”? Wasting my time. No it isn't. It is not fraud to waste your time. >Who’s “defrauding” who at this point? You are defrauding your employer. Lying to your employer about the time you work is fraud. Your employer wasting your time does not under any circumstances count as fraud. In fact you signed a contract which explicitly allows your employer to tell you what to do with your time, including telling you to waste it e.g. by sitting in front of a PC waiting for someone to talk to you about something. If you don't like what he tells you to do you have options, but refusing to work and representing to him that you have worked is not an option you have, without commiting fraud. There is no world in which you are not committing fraud. And there is no world in which your employer is defrauding you.

vundercind 3y ago
This is a good point. Wasting lots of people’s time is quite a bit worse than completing all your work to your employer’s satisfaction but not twiddling your thumbs for a few extra hours, so we shouldn’t use the same terms for the two things.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  Then dissolve your contract.
  - vundercind 3y ago
    Why are you so bothered by an arrangement that seems to be agreeable to those actually involved in it?
CoastalCoder 3y ago
> No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met them. That absolutely is "fraud". I wonder if you're referring to jobs outside of the U.S.? Salaried software developers in the U.S. typically don't have actual contracts.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  How can you be an employee without having a contract?
  - icedchai 3y ago
    In the US, most employees do not really have "contracts." You'll generally get an offer letter that you return to accept the job, but it's not a legally binding contract. You're an at-will employee.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      So, companies can just not pay their employees? And employees can do whatever they want with no recourse by their employer?
      - icedchai 3y ago
        No. If the employee doesn't do what the employer wants, they are at-will and can be fired. Payment / wages is covered by labor laws and can result in legal problems if not corrected.
        constantcrying 3y ago
        >Payment / wages is covered by labor laws How are wages defined, if not by a contract?
        icedchai 3y ago
        It’s in your offer letter. You can read up on how this differs from a legal contract.
- grepfru_it 3y ago
  You have an explicit contract. Employment which defines job requirements and pay. You sign it with your offer letter. It is usually very light in nature. As an exempt salaried employee you can simply check your email and (legally, backed by case law) call it a day of work. In an at-will state an employer can let you go for any reason. The contract is favorable to both parties at the same time
xyst 3y ago
I have no “contractual obligation” to sit in front of a computer between 9-5. My obligations were clearly stated in JD and offer letter. Seems like you are projecting what ever shit situation you are in onto others. I didn’t sign anything about whatever shit you are talking about or making up. Again, you are very dramatic. Everything you have said hinges on the fact that “yOu hAvE tO be 100% aVaIlAbLe dUrInG 9 tO 5”. This is not the case. If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol)
- constantcrying 3y ago
  Maybe I am projecting German labor law onto this, sure. But I suspected that, if anything, German labor law would be more accommodating to employees. If you are correct than I think that I'd wrong though and the law actually favors employers quite heavily, who actually have demands of you that you have to contractually agree to. >If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol) This isn't something an employer or employee decides. My contract is essentially a single page stating my salary, days of and saying that labor laws apply. There is no actual alternative I have.

vundercind 3y ago

This is a good point. Wasting lots of people’s time is quite a bit worse than completing all your work to your employer’s satisfaction but not twiddling your thumbs for a few extra hours, so we shouldn’t use the same terms for the two things.

constantcrying 3y ago
Then dissolve your contract.
- vundercind 3y ago
  Why are you so bothered by an arrangement that seems to be agreeable to those actually involved in it?

CoastalCoder 3y ago

> No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met them. That absolutely is "fraud". I wonder if you're referring to jobs outside of the U.S.? Salaried software developers in the U.S. typically don't have actual contracts.

constantcrying 3y ago
How can you be an employee without having a contract?
- icedchai 3y ago
  In the US, most employees do not really have "contracts." You'll generally get an offer letter that you return to accept the job, but it's not a legally binding contract. You're an at-will employee.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    So, companies can just not pay their employees? And employees can do whatever they want with no recourse by their employer?
    - icedchai 3y ago
      No. If the employee doesn't do what the employer wants, they are at-will and can be fired. Payment / wages is covered by labor laws and can result in legal problems if not corrected.
      - constantcrying 3y ago
        >Payment / wages is covered by labor laws How are wages defined, if not by a contract?
        icedchai 3y ago
        It’s in your offer letter. You can read up on how this differs from a legal contract.
grepfru_it 3y ago
You have an explicit contract. Employment which defines job requirements and pay. You sign it with your offer letter. It is usually very light in nature. As an exempt salaried employee you can simply check your email and (legally, backed by case law) call it a day of work. In an at-will state an employer can let you go for any reason. The contract is favorable to both parties at the same time

xyst 3y ago

I have no “contractual obligation” to sit in front of a computer between 9-5. My obligations were clearly stated in JD and offer letter. Seems like you are projecting what ever shit situation you are in onto others. I didn’t sign anything about whatever shit you are talking about or making up. Again, you are very dramatic. Everything you have said hinges on the fact that “yOu hAvE tO be 100% aVaIlAbLe dUrInG 9 tO 5”. This is not the case. If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol)

constantcrying 3y ago
Maybe I am projecting German labor law onto this, sure. But I suspected that, if anything, German labor law would be more accommodating to employees. If you are correct than I think that I'd wrong though and the law actually favors employers quite heavily, who actually have demands of you that you have to contractually agree to. >If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol) This isn't something an employer or employee decides. My contract is essentially a single page stating my salary, days of and saying that labor laws apply. There is no actual alternative I have.