5 ms·

You are literally defrauding your employer. The fact that you should be available, but aren't, alone is enough to make sure of that.

xyst 3y ago
“Defrauding my employer” — a bit dramatic, buddy. You must be a micromanager. You know what’s also “fraudulent”? Wasting my time. Time I will never get back. Time that you can never buy. Time that I will never spend with family/friends. I will never get back the hours lost to commuting to a stupid office. Who’s “defrauding” who at this point?
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >a bit dramatic, buddy. No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met them. That absolutely is "fraud". >You know what’s also “fraudulent”? Wasting my time. No it isn't. It is not fraud to waste your time. >Who’s “defrauding” who at this point? You are defrauding your employer. Lying to your employer about the time you work is fraud. Your employer wasting your time does not under any circumstances count as fraud. In fact you signed a contract which explicitly allows your employer to tell you what to do with your time, including telling you to waste it e.g. by sitting in front of a PC waiting for someone to talk to you about something. If you don't like what he tells you to do you have options, but refusing to work and representing to him that you have worked is not an option you have, without commiting fraud. There is no world in which you are not committing fraud. And there is no world in which your employer is defrauding you.
  - vundercind 3y ago
    This is a good point. Wasting lots of people’s time is quite a bit worse than completing all your work to your employer’s satisfaction but not twiddling your thumbs for a few extra hours, so we shouldn’t use the same terms for the two things.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      Then dissolve your contract.
      - vundercind 3y ago
        Why are you so bothered by an arrangement that seems to be agreeable to those actually involved in it?
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    > No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met them. That absolutely is "fraud". I wonder if you're referring to jobs outside of the U.S.? Salaried software developers in the U.S. typically don't have actual contracts.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      How can you be an employee without having a contract?
      - icedchai 3y ago
        In the US, most employees do not really have "contracts." You'll generally get an offer letter that you return to accept the job, but it's not a legally binding contract. You're an at-will employee.
        constantcrying 3y ago
        So, companies can just not pay their employees? And employees can do whatever they want with no recourse by their employer?
        icedchai 3y ago
        No. If the employee doesn't do what the employer wants, they are at-will and can be fired. Payment / wages is covered by labor laws and can result in legal problems if not corrected.
        constantcrying 3y ago
        >Payment / wages is covered by labor laws How are wages defined, if not by a contract?
        icedchai 3y ago
  - xyst 3y ago
    I have no “contractual obligation” to sit in front of a computer between 9-5. My obligations were clearly stated in JD and offer letter. Seems like you are projecting what ever shit situation you are in onto others. I didn’t sign anything about whatever shit you are talking about or making up. Again, you are very dramatic. Everything you have said hinges on the fact that “yOu hAvE tO be 100% aVaIlAbLe dUrInG 9 tO 5”. This is not the case. If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol)
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      Maybe I am projecting German labor law onto this, sure. But I suspected that, if anything, German labor law would be more accommodating to employees. If you are correct than I think that I'd wrong though and the law actually favors employers quite heavily, who actually have demands of you that you have to contractually agree to. >If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol) This isn't something an employer or employee decides. My contract is essentially a single page stating my salary, days of and saying that labor laws apply. There is no actual alternative I have.
zarathustreal 3y ago
There’s no mention of the terms of his employment, how are you so certain?
- constantcrying 3y ago
  Employers almost always pay you for working an average amount each week, anything else is extremely rare. Alternatives are usually common for self employed, but then there is no employer. If he self reports weekly hours or they are just assumed he is commiting fraud. If he correctly reports his worked hours his wages will obviously get cut to represent the hours worked and lead to swift termination as he is violating the contract he signed.
  - zarathustreal 3y ago
    > If he correctly reports his worked hours his wages will obviously get cut Why do you think he’s reporting hours and getting paid hourly? This is pretty uncommon in my experience, usually people work a salaried job where they’re paid in terms of an entire year. They don’t report their hours, that’s typically considered a toxic work environment in software development. For example at AWS we take turns being on-call every couple weeks and reporting hours would look absolutely ridiculous, it would be something like 80 hour work weeks. It’s kind of like if you and your wife insisted that you report how many articles of clothing you’ve each folded or how many dishes you put away each day. When one of you ends up doing a bit more or less, it’s not “defrauding” the other
Jtsummers 3y ago
It's not necessarily defrauding, depends on if the person in question is paid hourly or salaried, and if salaried the expected work hours. An hourly employee (several got fired at my last office for this, contractors who were not salaried) who shows up late in the morning and leaves early in the afternoon and claims an 8-hour day, yeah, that's defrauding. A salaried employee without a contractual requirement for 8-hours at their desk, then not fraud (maybe won't win them points with peers and supervisors, but not fraud).

xyst 3y ago

“Defrauding my employer” — a bit dramatic, buddy. You must be a micromanager. You know what’s also “fraudulent”? Wasting my time. Time I will never get back. Time that you can never buy. Time that I will never spend with family/friends. I will never get back the hours lost to commuting to a stupid office. Who’s “defrauding” who at this point?

constantcrying 3y ago
>a bit dramatic, buddy. No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met them. That absolutely is "fraud". >You know what’s also “fraudulent”? Wasting my time. No it isn't. It is not fraud to waste your time. >Who’s “defrauding” who at this point? You are defrauding your employer. Lying to your employer about the time you work is fraud. Your employer wasting your time does not under any circumstances count as fraud. In fact you signed a contract which explicitly allows your employer to tell you what to do with your time, including telling you to waste it e.g. by sitting in front of a PC waiting for someone to talk to you about something. If you don't like what he tells you to do you have options, but refusing to work and representing to him that you have worked is not an option you have, without commiting fraud. There is no world in which you are not committing fraud. And there is no world in which your employer is defrauding you.
- vundercind 3y ago
  This is a good point. Wasting lots of people’s time is quite a bit worse than completing all your work to your employer’s satisfaction but not twiddling your thumbs for a few extra hours, so we shouldn’t use the same terms for the two things.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    Then dissolve your contract.
    - vundercind 3y ago
      Why are you so bothered by an arrangement that seems to be agreeable to those actually involved in it?
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  > No. It is factually true. You refuse to meet your contractual obligations towards your employer, but represent to him that you have met them. That absolutely is "fraud". I wonder if you're referring to jobs outside of the U.S.? Salaried software developers in the U.S. typically don't have actual contracts.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    How can you be an employee without having a contract?
    - icedchai 3y ago
      In the US, most employees do not really have "contracts." You'll generally get an offer letter that you return to accept the job, but it's not a legally binding contract. You're an at-will employee.
      - constantcrying 3y ago
        So, companies can just not pay their employees? And employees can do whatever they want with no recourse by their employer?
        icedchai 3y ago
        No. If the employee doesn't do what the employer wants, they are at-will and can be fired. Payment / wages is covered by labor laws and can result in legal problems if not corrected.
        constantcrying 3y ago
        >Payment / wages is covered by labor laws How are wages defined, if not by a contract?
        icedchai 3y ago
- xyst 3y ago
  I have no “contractual obligation” to sit in front of a computer between 9-5. My obligations were clearly stated in JD and offer letter. Seems like you are projecting what ever shit situation you are in onto others. I didn’t sign anything about whatever shit you are talking about or making up. Again, you are very dramatic. Everything you have said hinges on the fact that “yOu hAvE tO be 100% aVaIlAbLe dUrInG 9 tO 5”. This is not the case. If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol)
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    Maybe I am projecting German labor law onto this, sure. But I suspected that, if anything, German labor law would be more accommodating to employees. If you are correct than I think that I'd wrong though and the law actually favors employers quite heavily, who actually have demands of you that you have to contractually agree to. >If there are employers out there that do this. Their priorities are not on delivering a usable product but using other people to make themselves feel better (surrounding themselves with yes people, lol) This isn't something an employer or employee decides. My contract is essentially a single page stating my salary, days of and saying that labor laws apply. There is no actual alternative I have.

zarathustreal 3y ago

There’s no mention of the terms of his employment, how are you so certain?

constantcrying 3y ago
Employers almost always pay you for working an average amount each week, anything else is extremely rare. Alternatives are usually common for self employed, but then there is no employer. If he self reports weekly hours or they are just assumed he is commiting fraud. If he correctly reports his worked hours his wages will obviously get cut to represent the hours worked and lead to swift termination as he is violating the contract he signed.
- zarathustreal 3y ago
  > If he correctly reports his worked hours his wages will obviously get cut Why do you think he’s reporting hours and getting paid hourly? This is pretty uncommon in my experience, usually people work a salaried job where they’re paid in terms of an entire year. They don’t report their hours, that’s typically considered a toxic work environment in software development. For example at AWS we take turns being on-call every couple weeks and reporting hours would look absolutely ridiculous, it would be something like 80 hour work weeks. It’s kind of like if you and your wife insisted that you report how many articles of clothing you’ve each folded or how many dishes you put away each day. When one of you ends up doing a bit more or less, it’s not “defrauding” the other

Jtsummers 3y ago

It's not necessarily defrauding, depends on if the person in question is paid hourly or salaried, and if salaried the expected work hours. An hourly employee (several got fired at my last office for this, contractors who were not salaried) who shows up late in the morning and leaves early in the afternoon and claims an 8-hour day, yeah, that's defrauding. A salaried employee without a contractual requirement for 8-hours at their desk, then not fraud (maybe won't win them points with peers and supervisors, but not fraud).