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I think their ideologically-driven mouthpieces are comparable. Their treatment of journalism is politically divergent, but both sides are so well-stocked with z

I think their ideologically-driven mouthpieces are comparable. Their treatment of journalism is politically divergent, but both sides are so well-stocked with zealots that I think both can be characterized as a "serial liar" pretty safely. As a person that supports secular politics, both ideologies repulse me. The media I trust most to report on this topic are the people with the least to gain from it, the sort of people the parent might dismiss for not being "in the field" enough.

tptacek 3y ago
I don't think what you're saying is true. I see you as arguing that both sides are equivalently polarized and biased --- seems reasonable! --- but skipping the fact that Hamas has outlawed an opposition press, something Israel has not in fact done.
- talldayo 3y ago
  Which part do you disagree with? Both sides host and support people that will readily lie to defend their own entrenched position. I'll agree any day of the week that Hamas has the more draconian social policy, but that's not an excuse to write off Gazan journalism. Israel's flaw is theocracy, which does not inherently equate them to their enemies but tragically condemns them to a similar path. Their army is stocked with religious adherents and their population is seeded with nationalist migrants. They're bankrolled by a foreign power that ensures their competency but one that doubts their altruism when acting independently. In effect it's a proxy war of chicken, with hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian lives caught in the middle. That part I hate. The only thing I'd be willing to concede is that journalists are being suppressed domestically, even though journalist casualties in Gaza suggest a staggeringly different story. In lieu of direct evidence I'll shelf that, but still contend the rest.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I'm not writing off Gazan journalism. I am making a narrow point about the lack of equivalence between journalistic institutions in Hamas-controlled Gaza and in Israel. Aside from that: Israel is not, in reality, a theocracy (it has theocratic forces in the same way the US and parts of Europe do). Nor is Israel is not "bankrolled by a foreign power"; it would be the preeminent military power in the region were foreign aid completely cut from it.
    - talldayo 3y ago
      > I am making a narrow point about the lack of equivalence between journalistic institutions in Hamas-controlled Gaza and in Israel. I am arguing that the distinction doesn't matter when both sides field individuals that behave with equal vitriol. Hamas-controlled Gaza is a neverending humanitarian trainwreck, comparing the strength of it's legitimized institutions to the country pillaging it is a farce. I'll admit that you're right about a lack of Hamas Times newspaper, if that's what you need to be happy. > it has theocratic forces in the same way the US and parts of Europe do Does it field serious non-theocratic armed forces? There are none that I'm aware of, but maybe Google is hiding something from me.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        I don't understand the question. The current most important internal rupture in Israeli civil society is that the most theocratic cohort of Israeli citizens has exempted itself from military service altogether.
      - azernik 3y ago
        The founding ideology and the one held by the secular-to-traditional mainstream is secular nationalism, not theocracy.
    - dtornabene 3y ago
      In no way is the ability to get citizenship via religious conversion comparable to anything in the US, and as far as I am aware, neither in Europe. You are indeed "writing off Gazan journalism" when saying "Hamas-controlled Gaza", which at this point is ludicrous given that Hamas controls literally nothing in Gaza, and certainly didn't control the Al-jazeera reporters, reuters reporters, Washington post reporters, and so on who have been killed by Israeli airstrikes so far. Also pretty weird argument to make when Israel is one of the only "democracies" in the world whose press operates under military censorship laws and has for decades.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        To the extent you believe there is (or was) a meaningful institution of journalism that operates apart from Hamas in Gaza, we just don't have anything to argue about. Almost the only issue I personally have with any of these discussions is that the tend to back out into some notion of Hamas being comparably legitimate (or, more often, comparably illegitimate) to Israel. This is why I keep saying that the argument I've made here is very narrow. If it simplifies things for you: rewind the clock to October 6th. Israel has some measure of state control over the media. So does Hamas. Israel and Hamas are not comparable: Hamas is far, far worse. That's it, that's the whole argument. That this argument doesn't prove a bunch of other points (like, "Israel is therefore a liberal democracy") doesn't matter: I'm not making those points, and probably don't believe them. I understand how message boards work but you're really going to have to take my word for it that this isn't some elliptical way to lay the groundwork for an argument that legitimizes Israel's current occupation of the Gaza Strip.
- runarberg 3y ago
  I’m very confused by this focus of Hamas supposedly outlawing opposition press. By far the largest threat to free press in Gaza has come from the Israeli military, that targets Journalists both in Gaza and the West Bank, does not allow free press access, etc. Even before Oct 7, the Israeli military destroyed the office of AP in 2021[1]. I’m still waiting for any credible excuse for why they did that (other then to limit press freedom in Gaza). And a year later they targeted and murdered journalist Shireen Abu Akleh. I’m not super informed about journalism and news access in Gaza (reading about it here[2]), but I was under the impression that Gazans get news from all over the world, not just Al-Aqsa TV, including PBC from the West Bank (meanwhile I’m not sure al-Aqsa TV is available except via satellite in the West Bank). I can be wrong about this, but from what I’m reading it appears that the most widely circulated newspaper in Palestine is al-Quds (based in Jerusalem obviously) which is also circulated in Gaza. In any case, the Gazans I follow on social media seem to have no problem getting news from non-Hamas sources. So whatever press restrictions Hamas is enforcing, it doesn’t seem to affect the news Gazans are actually receiving much, and if you compare that to the restrictions the Israeli military imposes and the destruction they cause, Hamas is a very minor player in limiting press freedom in Gaza. 1: https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-israel-palestinian-conflict-fe452147166f55ba5a9d32e6ba8b53d7 https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-israe... 2: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14631745 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14631745
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I admit to being flummoxed by this line of argumentation, since Hamas is famous for throwing supporters of the PA off rooftops during the 2006 elections --- the fact that only a small minority of Gazans are old enough ever to have voted in an election in Gaza is part of why collectively punishing them for Hamas' actions is so atrocious. Amnesty has been running campaigns about Hamas suppression of the press for almost a decade now. You're making, as well, the argument that Gazans have access to real journalism (and may themselves practice real journalism) in spite of Hamas. I agree completely. I made a very narrow point about a comparison drawn between Hamas and Israel, that's all.
    - 3y ago

tptacek 3y ago

I don't think what you're saying is true. I see you as arguing that both sides are equivalently polarized and biased --- seems reasonable! --- but skipping the fact that Hamas has outlawed an opposition press, something Israel has not in fact done.

talldayo 3y ago
Which part do you disagree with? Both sides host and support people that will readily lie to defend their own entrenched position. I'll agree any day of the week that Hamas has the more draconian social policy, but that's not an excuse to write off Gazan journalism. Israel's flaw is theocracy, which does not inherently equate them to their enemies but tragically condemns them to a similar path. Their army is stocked with religious adherents and their population is seeded with nationalist migrants. They're bankrolled by a foreign power that ensures their competency but one that doubts their altruism when acting independently. In effect it's a proxy war of chicken, with hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian lives caught in the middle. That part I hate. The only thing I'd be willing to concede is that journalists are being suppressed domestically, even though journalist casualties in Gaza suggest a staggeringly different story. In lieu of direct evidence I'll shelf that, but still contend the rest.
- tptacek 3y ago
  I'm not writing off Gazan journalism. I am making a narrow point about the lack of equivalence between journalistic institutions in Hamas-controlled Gaza and in Israel. Aside from that: Israel is not, in reality, a theocracy (it has theocratic forces in the same way the US and parts of Europe do). Nor is Israel is not "bankrolled by a foreign power"; it would be the preeminent military power in the region were foreign aid completely cut from it.
  - talldayo 3y ago
    > I am making a narrow point about the lack of equivalence between journalistic institutions in Hamas-controlled Gaza and in Israel. I am arguing that the distinction doesn't matter when both sides field individuals that behave with equal vitriol. Hamas-controlled Gaza is a neverending humanitarian trainwreck, comparing the strength of it's legitimized institutions to the country pillaging it is a farce. I'll admit that you're right about a lack of Hamas Times newspaper, if that's what you need to be happy. > it has theocratic forces in the same way the US and parts of Europe do Does it field serious non-theocratic armed forces? There are none that I'm aware of, but maybe Google is hiding something from me.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      I don't understand the question. The current most important internal rupture in Israeli civil society is that the most theocratic cohort of Israeli citizens has exempted itself from military service altogether.
    - azernik 3y ago
      The founding ideology and the one held by the secular-to-traditional mainstream is secular nationalism, not theocracy.
  - dtornabene 3y ago
    In no way is the ability to get citizenship via religious conversion comparable to anything in the US, and as far as I am aware, neither in Europe. You are indeed "writing off Gazan journalism" when saying "Hamas-controlled Gaza", which at this point is ludicrous given that Hamas controls literally nothing in Gaza, and certainly didn't control the Al-jazeera reporters, reuters reporters, Washington post reporters, and so on who have been killed by Israeli airstrikes so far. Also pretty weird argument to make when Israel is one of the only "democracies" in the world whose press operates under military censorship laws and has for decades.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      To the extent you believe there is (or was) a meaningful institution of journalism that operates apart from Hamas in Gaza, we just don't have anything to argue about. Almost the only issue I personally have with any of these discussions is that the tend to back out into some notion of Hamas being comparably legitimate (or, more often, comparably illegitimate) to Israel. This is why I keep saying that the argument I've made here is very narrow. If it simplifies things for you: rewind the clock to October 6th. Israel has some measure of state control over the media. So does Hamas. Israel and Hamas are not comparable: Hamas is far, far worse. That's it, that's the whole argument. That this argument doesn't prove a bunch of other points (like, "Israel is therefore a liberal democracy") doesn't matter: I'm not making those points, and probably don't believe them. I understand how message boards work but you're really going to have to take my word for it that this isn't some elliptical way to lay the groundwork for an argument that legitimizes Israel's current occupation of the Gaza Strip.
runarberg 3y ago
I’m very confused by this focus of Hamas supposedly outlawing opposition press. By far the largest threat to free press in Gaza has come from the Israeli military, that targets Journalists both in Gaza and the West Bank, does not allow free press access, etc. Even before Oct 7, the Israeli military destroyed the office of AP in 2021[1]. I’m still waiting for any credible excuse for why they did that (other then to limit press freedom in Gaza). And a year later they targeted and murdered journalist Shireen Abu Akleh. I’m not super informed about journalism and news access in Gaza (reading about it here[2]), but I was under the impression that Gazans get news from all over the world, not just Al-Aqsa TV, including PBC from the West Bank (meanwhile I’m not sure al-Aqsa TV is available except via satellite in the West Bank). I can be wrong about this, but from what I’m reading it appears that the most widely circulated newspaper in Palestine is al-Quds (based in Jerusalem obviously) which is also circulated in Gaza. In any case, the Gazans I follow on social media seem to have no problem getting news from non-Hamas sources. So whatever press restrictions Hamas is enforcing, it doesn’t seem to affect the news Gazans are actually receiving much, and if you compare that to the restrictions the Israeli military imposes and the destruction they cause, Hamas is a very minor player in limiting press freedom in Gaza. 1: https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-israel-palestinian-conflict-fe452147166f55ba5a9d32e6ba8b53d7 https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-israe... 2: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14631745 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14631745
- tptacek 3y ago
  I admit to being flummoxed by this line of argumentation, since Hamas is famous for throwing supporters of the PA off rooftops during the 2006 elections --- the fact that only a small minority of Gazans are old enough ever to have voted in an election in Gaza is part of why collectively punishing them for Hamas' actions is so atrocious. Amnesty has been running campaigns about Hamas suppression of the press for almost a decade now. You're making, as well, the argument that Gazans have access to real journalism (and may themselves practice real journalism) in spite of Hamas. I agree completely. I made a very narrow point about a comparison drawn between Hamas and Israel, that's all.
  - 3y ago