2 ms·

The overall bargaining power is greater, sure. But the relative power isn't. They can always just leave and work somewhere else, a union literally does not have

The overall bargaining power is greater, sure. But the relative power isn't. They can always just leave and work somewhere else, a union literally does not have that option. As an individual it is far easier to negotiate of you have an in demand skill. Which is obvious if you look at the study in the OP. College educated people benefit far less from unionization, they can negotiate for their own.

nickburns 3y ago
spoken like a fairly recent grad. an ambitious young person's perspective. you will eventually learn that you are beyond expendable in this world, despite how 'skilled' or adept at 'negotiating' you believe yourself to be (or actually are for that matter). we all are. what you fail to see yet is that you are not more skilled nor more adept than 'The Man.' and you're characterizing yourself as being anything 'more' than non-'college educated people' is simply successful divide-and-conquer—a power struggle strategy immemorial.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  What people fail to realize is that the leadership systems of Corporations: Boards of Directors, Executives, Management and HR are all effectively organized against them, to make sure the business gets what it wants as much as possible When you ask your manager for a raise, they might be your biggest fan and want you to get that raise, but there is a whole system that is going to resist it, because paying you less is better for the company. You're not bargaining with a person you're bargaining with a system. And the system is built in such a way that it is incredibly difficult to persuade at an individual level Workers can benefit from having their own system inside of the larger corporate system that is working for them, instead of this every man for themselves stuff
- throwaway11460 3y ago
  Both can be true at the same time. Companies both treat senior engineers as expendable and will fire them on a whim - while paying them whatever they dictate and rehiring them few months after the layoffs for 1.5x compensation. I'm happy being expendable. It means I can just pick up my things and go somewhere else whenever I please - any place I go has some spot for me and will pay me many multiples of the national average wage.
  - nobodyandproud 3y ago
    > I'm happy being expendable. > It means I can just pick up my things and go somewhere else whenever I please. You are conflating expendability with redundancy.
    - throwaway11460 3y ago
      Two sides of the same coin, IMHO
      - nobodyandproud 3y ago
        Oh my that’s a skewed perspective. That lack of perspective—specialty of the long-gone Jack Welch—-is what’s led us to the rapid fall and third-tier engineering of Boeing today. They are definitely not the two sides of the same coin.
bluefirebrand 3y ago
> College educated people benefit far less from unionization They benefit far less but they still do benefit on the whole So... Not seeing the advantage for not unionizing, unless you think you're one of the top top top performers who might potentially be capped by a union instead of one of the mass of people who would be lifted up by it
steve_adams_86 3y ago
What happens when your education is no longer relevant to the market? And you’ve had kids and don’t really have the time to retool and level up your skills to regain your leverage. Or your industry becomes saturated with highly skilled people and your leverage is steadily reduced in ways you can’t address. Virtually no one is special enough to avoid some or even all of this.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  Then you are of very low value to your employer and a union acts as a social benefits organization. Essentially you are payed by the people whose skills are more valuable than yours.
- pandaman 3y ago
  As I am approaching the retirement age, I don't see this happening. I actually can't even imagine education expiring somehow or marketable skills needing "retooling". But even if these scenarios all happened, you are basically advocating that somebody still have to provide highly paying job for you even though you don't have an education or skill and there are plenty of people who are higher skilled than you? Would you hire somebody like that to do work on your house or, perhaps, you'd like to receive medical treatment from a doctor like that? If not, why others should hire you?
phatskat 3y ago
It’s been a hot minute since I watched this episode[1] so the points aren’t fresh on my mind, but unions are good for everyone even if you aren’t in one. And yes, in demand skills do make it easier to bargain as an individual, however, that’s assuming those skills are needed at the level which you posses. In my field (web development) I’ve seen much less money go to far more people of a similar but lesser skill than my colleagues because you can throw a handful of people at a fairly decent project and get the desired immediate result. Long-term that code probably won’t stand, but that’s not really important for things like agency work where there’s some incentive to continue having work to do anyways. [1] https://youtu.be/rFDP4hS7j98 https://youtu.be/rFDP4hS7j98 - Unions Make Things Better (Even If You’re Not In One)

nickburns 3y ago

spoken like a fairly recent grad. an ambitious young person's perspective. you will eventually learn that you are beyond expendable in this world, despite how 'skilled' or adept at 'negotiating' you believe yourself to be (or actually are for that matter). we all are. what you fail to see yet is that you are not more skilled nor more adept than 'The Man.' and you're characterizing yourself as being anything 'more' than non-'college educated people' is simply successful divide-and-conquer—a power struggle strategy immemorial.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
What people fail to realize is that the leadership systems of Corporations: Boards of Directors, Executives, Management and HR are all effectively organized against them, to make sure the business gets what it wants as much as possible When you ask your manager for a raise, they might be your biggest fan and want you to get that raise, but there is a whole system that is going to resist it, because paying you less is better for the company. You're not bargaining with a person you're bargaining with a system. And the system is built in such a way that it is incredibly difficult to persuade at an individual level Workers can benefit from having their own system inside of the larger corporate system that is working for them, instead of this every man for themselves stuff
throwaway11460 3y ago
Both can be true at the same time. Companies both treat senior engineers as expendable and will fire them on a whim - while paying them whatever they dictate and rehiring them few months after the layoffs for 1.5x compensation. I'm happy being expendable. It means I can just pick up my things and go somewhere else whenever I please - any place I go has some spot for me and will pay me many multiples of the national average wage.
- nobodyandproud 3y ago
  > I'm happy being expendable. > It means I can just pick up my things and go somewhere else whenever I please. You are conflating expendability with redundancy.
  - throwaway11460 3y ago
    Two sides of the same coin, IMHO
    - nobodyandproud 3y ago
      Oh my that’s a skewed perspective. That lack of perspective—specialty of the long-gone Jack Welch—-is what’s led us to the rapid fall and third-tier engineering of Boeing today. They are definitely not the two sides of the same coin.

bluefirebrand 3y ago

> College educated people benefit far less from unionization They benefit far less but they still do benefit on the whole So... Not seeing the advantage for not unionizing, unless you think you're one of the top top top performers who might potentially be capped by a union instead of one of the mass of people who would be lifted up by it

steve_adams_86 3y ago

What happens when your education is no longer relevant to the market? And you’ve had kids and don’t really have the time to retool and level up your skills to regain your leverage. Or your industry becomes saturated with highly skilled people and your leverage is steadily reduced in ways you can’t address. Virtually no one is special enough to avoid some or even all of this.

constantcrying 3y ago
Then you are of very low value to your employer and a union acts as a social benefits organization. Essentially you are payed by the people whose skills are more valuable than yours.
pandaman 3y ago
As I am approaching the retirement age, I don't see this happening. I actually can't even imagine education expiring somehow or marketable skills needing "retooling". But even if these scenarios all happened, you are basically advocating that somebody still have to provide highly paying job for you even though you don't have an education or skill and there are plenty of people who are higher skilled than you? Would you hire somebody like that to do work on your house or, perhaps, you'd like to receive medical treatment from a doctor like that? If not, why others should hire you?

phatskat 3y ago

It’s been a hot minute since I watched this episode[1] so the points aren’t fresh on my mind, but unions are good for everyone even if you aren’t in one. And yes, in demand skills do make it easier to bargain as an individual, however, that’s assuming those skills are needed at the level which you posses. In my field (web development) I’ve seen much less money go to far more people of a similar but lesser skill than my colleagues because you can throw a handful of people at a fairly decent project and get the desired immediate result. Long-term that code probably won’t stand, but that’s not really important for things like agency work where there’s some incentive to continue having work to do anyways. [1] https://youtu.be/rFDP4hS7j98 https://youtu.be/rFDP4hS7j98 - Unions Make Things Better (Even If You’re Not In One)