4 ms·

I cannot agree more. Having a better energy efficiency can only improve opex but capex makes probably most of the cost. And energy is probably free. Let me exp

by joak 3y ago

I cannot agree more. Having a better energy efficiency can only improve opex but capex makes probably most of the cost. And energy is probably free. Let me explain: if we install solar panels at scale only a fraction of the energy produced can be sold because in the sunny hours of the day there is overproduction. So why would you want to have a better efficiency in energy use? What matters is to build the cheapest possible machine, to make use of the energy in excess. At whatever efficiency, otherwise the energy is simply curtailed.

hackerlight 3y ago
> What matters is to build the cheapest possible machine, to make use of the energy in excess. I see 4 ways you can use excess. Either sell it to other states or countries, make green hydrogen (natgas competitor), charge short term storage (batteries, pumped hydro), or carbon conversion.
- usrusr 3y ago
  “make green hydrogen“ Which requires a machine which may or may not be the cheapest to do keep available for opportunistic "power2somethinguseful". Batteries are also in this category, they excel in how many watts you can dump per dollar worth of battery (before they are full), but don't offer many Wh per investment. Which brings us back to what GP wrote: "What matters is to build the cheapest possible machine, to make use of the energy in excess." It's all about how many hours of opportunistic activity does it need per year to be worthwhile. If you build some super efficient power2useful machine that is only worthwhile when running 24/7, then you are exactly zero steps closer to the green energy future. The key metric is where on the opportunisticity spectrum between 24/7 on one end and only the few most energy-abundant hours per year on the other end a technology can place itself. At the opportunistic extreme end of the scale we will undoubtedly find resistive boosters to latent heat stores that usually run on heatpumps alone (boosters come online when maket price drops below the heat pump's buy threshold divided by work factor)
caturopath 3y ago
Solar power production patterns don't make energy free. Normal pricing mechanisms apply. This can mean that something has a zero or negative price sometimes (this occurs in electricity markets today), but that is an unusual circumstance. Usually when something is available due to some sort of regularity in the world, people find uses and this drives the price up to some positive value.
prometheon1 3y ago
This future world with all these solar panels might also have lots of intercontinental HVDC cables to spread that power around the world: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9241117 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9241117 Nevertheless, if we install enough panels, it will be so cheap that the cost is negligible for most applications.

by joak 3y ago

hackerlight 3y ago

> What matters is to build the cheapest possible machine, to make use of the energy in excess. I see 4 ways you can use excess. Either sell it to other states or countries, make green hydrogen (natgas competitor), charge short term storage (batteries, pumped hydro), or carbon conversion.

usrusr 3y ago
“make green hydrogen“ Which requires a machine which may or may not be the cheapest to do keep available for opportunistic "power2somethinguseful". Batteries are also in this category, they excel in how many watts you can dump per dollar worth of battery (before they are full), but don't offer many Wh per investment. Which brings us back to what GP wrote: "What matters is to build the cheapest possible machine, to make use of the energy in excess." It's all about how many hours of opportunistic activity does it need per year to be worthwhile. If you build some super efficient power2useful machine that is only worthwhile when running 24/7, then you are exactly zero steps closer to the green energy future. The key metric is where on the opportunisticity spectrum between 24/7 on one end and only the few most energy-abundant hours per year on the other end a technology can place itself. At the opportunistic extreme end of the scale we will undoubtedly find resistive boosters to latent heat stores that usually run on heatpumps alone (boosters come online when maket price drops below the heat pump's buy threshold divided by work factor)

caturopath 3y ago

Solar power production patterns don't make energy free. Normal pricing mechanisms apply. This can mean that something has a zero or negative price sometimes (this occurs in electricity markets today), but that is an unusual circumstance. Usually when something is available due to some sort of regularity in the world, people find uses and this drives the price up to some positive value.

prometheon1 3y ago

This future world with all these solar panels might also have lots of intercontinental HVDC cables to spread that power around the world: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9241117 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9241117 Nevertheless, if we install enough panels, it will be so cheap that the cost is negligible for most applications.