4 ms·

We shouldn't rule out the probability that this account is from a U.S. agency as well.

wannacboatmovie 3y ago
Just so I understand, you're alleging that a U.S. agency was, among other things, submitting patches for a mainland Chinese home-grown CPU architecture (Loongson)?
- yorwba 3y ago
  Aren't you confusing JiaT75 and xry111? And if someone wanted to attack a target running on Loongson, they would certainly have to make sure the code can actually run there in the first place.
- boutique 3y ago
  No, they're not. They are saying that due to the extraordinary circumstances with this case US agencies cannot be excluded from suspicion. At this time no actor seems to be a more likely perpetrator than the next. (Keep in mind that false-flag operations are a very common occurrence in cyber warfare and this cannot be ruled out yet.)
- FLT8 3y ago
  It doesn't seem out of the question that the U.S. or allied nations might want to be involved in the development effort around these CPUs. Even if initially it's just to build some credibility for this account so future adversarial patches are accepted with less suspicion? If you think that's implausible, I'm interested why?
EthanHeilman 3y ago
We shouldn't rule it out, but it seems unlikely to me. This is more reckless than any backdoor I can think of by a US agency . NSA backdoored Dual EC DRBG, which was extremely reckless, but this makes that look careful and that was the Zenith of NSA recklessness. The attackers here straight up just cowboy'd the joint. I can't think of any instance in which US intelligence used sock puppets on public forums and mailinglists to encourage deployment of the backdoored software and I maintain a list of NSA backdoors: https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html It just doesn't seem like their style.
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  The CIA had plans to commit terrorist acts against American civilians to start a war against Cuba in the 60s. This is quite literally their style. For example, perhaps they were planning to blame the hack of a power plant or critical infrastructure on this exploit, then use the "evidence" that was leaked to prove it was China, and from there carry out an offensive operation against Chinese infrastructure. There are lots of subversive reasons they would want to do this.
  - astrange 3y ago
    The CIA in 2024 really doesn't have any continuity with itself in 1960. Things like the Church Commission changed how it was governed.
  - EthanHeilman 3y ago
    You are referring to Operation Northwoods [0], a set of plans from the 1960s, all of which were rejected. Operation Northwoods came about because Brig. Gen. Edward Lansdale, asked the CIA to come up with a list of pretexts that might be used to justify an invasion of Cuba. This request had a number of planners at the CIA enumerate possible false flags that could be used as a pretext. One of those plans was a terror attack against US citizens. Operation Northwoods was rejected and never implemented. The US has plans for nearly everything, but there is a massive difference between a plan that some CIA analyst is pitching and something the US is likely or even able to do. The US had all sorts of plans for how to handle a pandemic, but then when one actually happened, the plans couldn't be implemented because the US didn't actually have the capabilities the plans called for. > example, perhaps they were planning to blame the hack of a power plant or critical infrastructure on this exploit, then use the "evidence" that was leaked to prove it was China, and from there carry out an offensive operation against Chinese infrastructure. Backdooring OpenSSH would in no way function as a pretext for attacks on Chinese infrastructure. No one outside the tech companies cares about this. The US also doesn't need to invent hacking pretexts, you could just point to one of many exposed Chinese hacking incidents. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Just so I understand, you're alleging that a U.S. agency was, among other things, submitting patches for a mainland Chinese home-grown CPU architecture (Loongson)?

yorwba 3y ago
Aren't you confusing JiaT75 and xry111? And if someone wanted to attack a target running on Loongson, they would certainly have to make sure the code can actually run there in the first place.
boutique 3y ago
No, they're not. They are saying that due to the extraordinary circumstances with this case US agencies cannot be excluded from suspicion. At this time no actor seems to be a more likely perpetrator than the next. (Keep in mind that false-flag operations are a very common occurrence in cyber warfare and this cannot be ruled out yet.)
FLT8 3y ago
It doesn't seem out of the question that the U.S. or allied nations might want to be involved in the development effort around these CPUs. Even if initially it's just to build some credibility for this account so future adversarial patches are accepted with less suspicion? If you think that's implausible, I'm interested why?

EthanHeilman 3y ago

We shouldn't rule it out, but it seems unlikely to me. This is more reckless than any backdoor I can think of by a US agency . NSA backdoored Dual EC DRBG, which was extremely reckless, but this makes that look careful and that was the Zenith of NSA recklessness. The attackers here straight up just cowboy'd the joint. I can't think of any instance in which US intelligence used sock puppets on public forums and mailinglists to encourage deployment of the backdoored software and I maintain a list of NSA backdoors: https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html It just doesn't seem like their style.

oceanplexian 3y ago
The CIA had plans to commit terrorist acts against American civilians to start a war against Cuba in the 60s. This is quite literally their style. For example, perhaps they were planning to blame the hack of a power plant or critical infrastructure on this exploit, then use the "evidence" that was leaked to prove it was China, and from there carry out an offensive operation against Chinese infrastructure. There are lots of subversive reasons they would want to do this.
- astrange 3y ago
  The CIA in 2024 really doesn't have any continuity with itself in 1960. Things like the Church Commission changed how it was governed.
- EthanHeilman 3y ago
  You are referring to Operation Northwoods [0], a set of plans from the 1960s, all of which were rejected. Operation Northwoods came about because Brig. Gen. Edward Lansdale, asked the CIA to come up with a list of pretexts that might be used to justify an invasion of Cuba. This request had a number of planners at the CIA enumerate possible false flags that could be used as a pretext. One of those plans was a terror attack against US citizens. Operation Northwoods was rejected and never implemented. The US has plans for nearly everything, but there is a massive difference between a plan that some CIA analyst is pitching and something the US is likely or even able to do. The US had all sorts of plans for how to handle a pandemic, but then when one actually happened, the plans couldn't be implemented because the US didn't actually have the capabilities the plans called for. > example, perhaps they were planning to blame the hack of a power plant or critical infrastructure on this exploit, then use the "evidence" that was leaked to prove it was China, and from there carry out an offensive operation against Chinese infrastructure. Backdooring OpenSSH would in no way function as a pretext for attacks on Chinese infrastructure. No one outside the tech companies cares about this. The US also doesn't need to invent hacking pretexts, you could just point to one of many exposed Chinese hacking incidents. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods