9 ms·

Want an incentive to have students perform better? Schools need to implement a standard performance-based path for skipping grade levels so that students can g

by lupatus 14y ago

Want an incentive to have students perform better? Schools need to implement a standard performance-based path for skipping grade levels so that students can get out sooner. I was reading Hawking, Nietzsche, and college-level humanities books in my free time in 8th grade because I was bored out of my gourd with my classes. In 12th grade, I was forced to take classes that taught, for example, how to balance your check book. I'm pretty sure that when he's older, I'm going to encourage my son to get a GED when he's 16 yo or so, just so that he doesn't have to put up with all of the bullcrap classes. And, I don't care about your socialization arguments. My son is 2 yo and already has great table manners, is polite, shares, and is quite empathetic. Most of the "normal" young people I meet these days behave either like wild Indians (feather not dot) or slovenly Barbarians.

tgrass 14y ago
Some schools allow students to graduate earlier. I got out of high school a semester early; my sister and mother both received their Bachelors at nineteen. While making no call on the politeness of the phrase, "feather not dot" is one of the best I've read in days.
- ndespres 14y ago
  > While making no call on the politeness of the phrase, "feather not dot" is one of the best I've read in days. Really? It was an inappropriate remark, I was surprised to read it and even more surprised to see it lauded by someone else.
  - lupatus 14y ago
    Seriously? The first time I encountered the phrase was at a picnic while talking with an Eskimo tribal administrator and a physics professor from Khalilabad. For the life of me, I can't remember which one used it first. I was under the impression that it was an acceptable short-hand for distinguishing which culture/ethnicity is being referenced when either is equally likely. Do the PC-police now disagree?
    - ndespres 14y ago
      I'm referring more to the "like wild Indians" comment, which is qualified by a cute remark intended to clarify exactly which culture is supposed to be offended there. I'm not being PC.
    - tgrass 14y ago
      As I said, making no call on the politeness. [obligatory] It is inappropriate and morally reprehensible. [/obligatory] Can you not look at nuclear reactions and separate that they are used to make a nuclear bomb? It was a succinct phrase. It is visually and connotatively arresting. As is evinced by the amount of ire it has provoked. As a side note, I still read the phrase 'wild Indians' with an image of children misbehaving, especially as it is paralleled later by Barbarians, a generic term for uncivilized behavior. So to me the phrase 'feather not dot' was a preemptive defense against moral grandstanding; what's more, to me it conjured up (in just three words) the very history of the name 'indian' (which when googled on my browser, despite having no interest in baseball, only returns the Cleveland team) - a name misapplied by foreigners. Now, reading the poster's later defenses[1], I can see that he in fact had no such thoughts when using it...but I am a relativist when it comes to art and believe the perception of the audience supersedes the intent of the artist, and so for me, the phrase still stands as evocative without being ugly. 1.http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3987141 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3987141 : "Note, in my comment, I am not saying all Indians are wild, I am only specifically referencing the wild ones."
    - aamar 14y ago
      I was under the impression that it was an acceptable short-hand for distinguishing which culture/ethnicity is being referenced when either is equally likely. Do the PC-police now disagree? It's (basically) acceptable, but most likely not if used by you. It's not that sensitivities to the phrase have changed; it's that you're not a "safe" speaker in this regard. To briefly recap the positive aspect of "PC" norms: speech which disparages or generalizes about racial/sex groups communicates to others a willingness to disrespect the members of those groups categorically. This creates a sense of acceptability[1] for outright oppression. Oppression continues to happen, routinely, though generally it is secret. Compare PC-norms to the Byzantine Generals' Problem[2]: racial minorities and those who seek racial harmony are in the middle. The attacking generals are attempting to coordinate with each other to attack the harmonists. But if the generals are inhibited from coordinating attacks using public speech forums, the harmonists stand a better chance of success. So even "coded" or minor messages should be stamped out, because they are the foundation of coordination. Now, if you're a member of the minority in question, your use of offensive generalizations does not usually suggest an attack, which potentially changes the acceptability and meaning[3]. "Feather-not-dot" is a particularly interesting example, since it symmetrically stereotypes two groups. I've heard it many times and it generally gives me pause. When spoken by a Native American or East Indian, it's generally fine, but really only when a high level of mutual regard is quite clear. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reappropriation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reappropriation
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
tjr 14y ago
At the start of 11th grade, my parents got the idea that I might be happier at a local college than in high school. They asked the principal if he would write a recommendation letter for me. He wrote that he did not believe I could adequately perform at the college level. My parents disregarded this, and I got enrolled in classes. Once I was there, I was enjoying school much more than I was at the high school, and I often did better than the regular college students... I would like to think that this sort of promotion out of drudgery would be common-place by now, but I have no idea.
- lupatus 14y ago
  I wish it were common place. From what I understand, many school districts in the USA have rules against this. Or, they have no advertised route for early completion, which is effectively the same thing.
  - dgrnbrg 14y ago
    When I was in high school, I only managed to skip one math class. I was forbidden from taking AP physics without first taking non-AP physics, and the school was unwilling to work with me so that I could take classes at a local college (i.e. I wouldn't graduate because they wouldn't help me make the schedule work). This was at a small, elite private school.
hnhg 14y ago
Clearly your great mind hasn't yet come to realise why some of us are aghast at stupid racist statements like yours.
- lupatus 14y ago
  hnhg, Thanks for saying that because it brings up a problem that HN has that I've been thinking about for awhile. HN seems to be stuck in an upper to upper-middle class/Leftist/Politally-Correct viewpoint, and I think that is to its detriment. Why do so many HNer's startups focus on things like iPod Apps, whose chances for profitability are very questionable, instead of markets like industrial sales software, which is very under-served? Shouting "That's racist!" every time someone expresses a non-Leftist opinion here is a symptom of your limited viewpoint, and frankly is embarrassing for you. Would you express the same righteous indignation if I was trying to distinguish between groups of Europeans and had said "lederhosen not shamrock"? I used to live in an Alaskan Native tribal village, and my friends there would be some of the first ones to tell you that some Indians are wild while some are not. (Note, in my comment, I am not saying all Indians are wild, I am only specifically referencing the wild ones.) And, by wild, I mean those who stereotypically disregard personal and communal property rights and engage in harmful activities like thievery and poaching for the fun of it. hnhg, I don't know if my point will get through to you or not. I can only hope that you will actually go out and experience the greater world sometime. If you're angry, please go ahead and downvote me. I've been voted down to -80 karma before. It is close-minded people like you who are the reason why PG no longer shows karma scores for users.
  - bilbo0s 14y ago
    I have to say... hnhg seems correct here your arguments can definitely be 'distilled'. In that distillation process the references to 'Indians', 'Shamrocks' and 'Barbarians' would be the first to go as they add no support to your material point. Of course, hnhg's comment approaches Ad Hominem. It could also be better worded. Just trying to be fair.
    - lupatus 14y ago
krschultz 14y ago
You can skip grades in public school. I was getting in a lot of trouble becuase I was bored out of my mind at school, yet I could pass the tests multiple years ahead of me. My parents fought pretty hard but ultimately the school let me take a bunch of tests to prove I could make it by skipping a grade or two. I passed them and was given the option of skipping 8th grade and going straight to high school from 7th. I didn't take that option. I knew a lot of the kids in my neighborhood and they were all 1-2 years older. They would all know that I had skipped ahead and many were bullies. That was definitely a fear of mine if I stayed in the same school district. Thus my parents looked at private schools. All the private schools were willing to let me skip to high school as well. Unfortunately they were expensive (my parents didn't make an issue of this, but I was aware of it). I also didn't really want to leave my friends and a lot of the kids at the private school seemed more stuck up. So I ended up staying with my normal grade and the public school jumped me ahead with a lot independet study stuff as much as possible. It helped a bit. What helped a lot more was the principal telling the teachers that I was allowed to read during their classes so long as I wasn't getting in trouble. I basically spent middle school as one giant independent study reading books from the town library. Thankfully when I got to high school, the classes got massively better. I ended up basically finding 3 teachers that really pushed me to go above and beyond the regular curriculum. I took 3 history classes from one of the best teachers I've ever had. I had 2 years of science from a guy with a chemical engineering phD and who powered through MIT in 3 years. And I had a drafting/wood shop/stage craft teacher who let me build and draw stuff as much as I wanted. Those three guys helped me to learn an enormous amount in high school and have a great time. Once I got to college, I was really glad I didn't skip ahead. I'm very thankful that my parents pushed the school to let me move ahead when I made it clear I wanted that. I'm also glad they didn't force me to do it after they fought so hard to get the school to let me. They were very supportive, but not over bearing. If your kid wants to move ahead, help him. If he doesn't, don't force him. One of my dad's coworkers forced his daughter through school ahead of schedule like you want to. She graduated high school at an early age, went to Princeton, and was out by age 18. She went to med school and was a doctor by 22. She can't get any patients. Nobody actually wants a doctor who is 22. She is depressed, doing research (that she doesn't want to do) and is pissed off about missing out on high school, college, etc. For what? The end result was his coworker getting divorced and barely ever seeing his daughter. On the other hand, I worked with a guy who graduated high school early, graduated college by the time he was 20, and he's one of the smartest, nicest, most succesful people I know. My personal experience is that the BS is late elementary and middle school. If your parents teach you simple math and reading at home you can jump ahead 2-3 years. By high school the availability of AP classes, independent study, and better electives (music, stagecraft, architecture, art, etc) make it far more enjoyable. I don't think shortening high school makes as much sense as shortening middle school. I also think you have to listen to what your kid wants to do, not go based on what you want them to do.
aqme28 14y ago
"Most of the "normal" young people I meet these days behave either like wild Indians (feather not dot) or slovenly Barbarians." I hope you realize this is incredibly racist.

by lupatus 14y ago

tgrass 14y ago

Some schools allow students to graduate earlier. I got out of high school a semester early; my sister and mother both received their Bachelors at nineteen. While making no call on the politeness of the phrase, "feather not dot" is one of the best I've read in days.

ndespres 14y ago
> While making no call on the politeness of the phrase, "feather not dot" is one of the best I've read in days. Really? It was an inappropriate remark, I was surprised to read it and even more surprised to see it lauded by someone else.
- lupatus 14y ago
  Seriously? The first time I encountered the phrase was at a picnic while talking with an Eskimo tribal administrator and a physics professor from Khalilabad. For the life of me, I can't remember which one used it first. I was under the impression that it was an acceptable short-hand for distinguishing which culture/ethnicity is being referenced when either is equally likely. Do the PC-police now disagree?
  - ndespres 14y ago
    I'm referring more to the "like wild Indians" comment, which is qualified by a cute remark intended to clarify exactly which culture is supposed to be offended there. I'm not being PC.
  - tgrass 14y ago
    As I said, making no call on the politeness. [obligatory] It is inappropriate and morally reprehensible. [/obligatory] Can you not look at nuclear reactions and separate that they are used to make a nuclear bomb? It was a succinct phrase. It is visually and connotatively arresting. As is evinced by the amount of ire it has provoked. As a side note, I still read the phrase 'wild Indians' with an image of children misbehaving, especially as it is paralleled later by Barbarians, a generic term for uncivilized behavior. So to me the phrase 'feather not dot' was a preemptive defense against moral grandstanding; what's more, to me it conjured up (in just three words) the very history of the name 'indian' (which when googled on my browser, despite having no interest in baseball, only returns the Cleveland team) - a name misapplied by foreigners. Now, reading the poster's later defenses[1], I can see that he in fact had no such thoughts when using it...but I am a relativist when it comes to art and believe the perception of the audience supersedes the intent of the artist, and so for me, the phrase still stands as evocative without being ugly. 1.http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3987141 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3987141 : "Note, in my comment, I am not saying all Indians are wild, I am only specifically referencing the wild ones."
  - aamar 14y ago
    I was under the impression that it was an acceptable short-hand for distinguishing which culture/ethnicity is being referenced when either is equally likely. Do the PC-police now disagree? It's (basically) acceptable, but most likely not if used by you. It's not that sensitivities to the phrase have changed; it's that you're not a "safe" speaker in this regard. To briefly recap the positive aspect of "PC" norms: speech which disparages or generalizes about racial/sex groups communicates to others a willingness to disrespect the members of those groups categorically. This creates a sense of acceptability[1] for outright oppression. Oppression continues to happen, routinely, though generally it is secret. Compare PC-norms to the Byzantine Generals' Problem[2]: racial minorities and those who seek racial harmony are in the middle. The attacking generals are attempting to coordinate with each other to attack the harmonists. But if the generals are inhibited from coordinating attacks using public speech forums, the harmonists stand a better chance of success. So even "coded" or minor messages should be stamped out, because they are the foundation of coordination. Now, if you're a member of the minority in question, your use of offensive generalizations does not usually suggest an attack, which potentially changes the acceptability and meaning[3]. "Feather-not-dot" is a particularly interesting example, since it symmetrically stereotypes two groups. I've heard it many times and it generally gives me pause. When spoken by a Native American or East Indian, it's generally fine, but really only when a high level of mutual regard is quite clear. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reappropriation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reappropriation
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

tjr 14y ago

At the start of 11th grade, my parents got the idea that I might be happier at a local college than in high school. They asked the principal if he would write a recommendation letter for me. He wrote that he did not believe I could adequately perform at the college level. My parents disregarded this, and I got enrolled in classes. Once I was there, I was enjoying school much more than I was at the high school, and I often did better than the regular college students... I would like to think that this sort of promotion out of drudgery would be common-place by now, but I have no idea.

lupatus 14y ago
I wish it were common place. From what I understand, many school districts in the USA have rules against this. Or, they have no advertised route for early completion, which is effectively the same thing.
- dgrnbrg 14y ago
  When I was in high school, I only managed to skip one math class. I was forbidden from taking AP physics without first taking non-AP physics, and the school was unwilling to work with me so that I could take classes at a local college (i.e. I wouldn't graduate because they wouldn't help me make the schedule work). This was at a small, elite private school.

hnhg 14y ago

Clearly your great mind hasn't yet come to realise why some of us are aghast at stupid racist statements like yours.

lupatus 14y ago
hnhg, Thanks for saying that because it brings up a problem that HN has that I've been thinking about for awhile. HN seems to be stuck in an upper to upper-middle class/Leftist/Politally-Correct viewpoint, and I think that is to its detriment. Why do so many HNer's startups focus on things like iPod Apps, whose chances for profitability are very questionable, instead of markets like industrial sales software, which is very under-served? Shouting "That's racist!" every time someone expresses a non-Leftist opinion here is a symptom of your limited viewpoint, and frankly is embarrassing for you. Would you express the same righteous indignation if I was trying to distinguish between groups of Europeans and had said "lederhosen not shamrock"? I used to live in an Alaskan Native tribal village, and my friends there would be some of the first ones to tell you that some Indians are wild while some are not. (Note, in my comment, I am not saying all Indians are wild, I am only specifically referencing the wild ones.) And, by wild, I mean those who stereotypically disregard personal and communal property rights and engage in harmful activities like thievery and poaching for the fun of it. hnhg, I don't know if my point will get through to you or not. I can only hope that you will actually go out and experience the greater world sometime. If you're angry, please go ahead and downvote me. I've been voted down to -80 karma before. It is close-minded people like you who are the reason why PG no longer shows karma scores for users.
- bilbo0s 14y ago
  I have to say... hnhg seems correct here your arguments can definitely be 'distilled'. In that distillation process the references to 'Indians', 'Shamrocks' and 'Barbarians' would be the first to go as they add no support to your material point. Of course, hnhg's comment approaches Ad Hominem. It could also be better worded. Just trying to be fair.
  - lupatus 14y ago

krschultz 14y ago

You can skip grades in public school. I was getting in a lot of trouble becuase I was bored out of my mind at school, yet I could pass the tests multiple years ahead of me. My parents fought pretty hard but ultimately the school let me take a bunch of tests to prove I could make it by skipping a grade or two. I passed them and was given the option of skipping 8th grade and going straight to high school from 7th. I didn't take that option. I knew a lot of the kids in my neighborhood and they were all 1-2 years older. They would all know that I had skipped ahead and many were bullies. That was definitely a fear of mine if I stayed in the same school district. Thus my parents looked at private schools. All the private schools were willing to let me skip to high school as well. Unfortunately they were expensive (my parents didn't make an issue of this, but I was aware of it). I also didn't really want to leave my friends and a lot of the kids at the private school seemed more stuck up. So I ended up staying with my normal grade and the public school jumped me ahead with a lot independet study stuff as much as possible. It helped a bit. What helped a lot more was the principal telling the teachers that I was allowed to read during their classes so long as I wasn't getting in trouble. I basically spent middle school as one giant independent study reading books from the town library. Thankfully when I got to high school, the classes got massively better. I ended up basically finding 3 teachers that really pushed me to go above and beyond the regular curriculum. I took 3 history classes from one of the best teachers I've ever had. I had 2 years of science from a guy with a chemical engineering phD and who powered through MIT in 3 years. And I had a drafting/wood shop/stage craft teacher who let me build and draw stuff as much as I wanted. Those three guys helped me to learn an enormous amount in high school and have a great time. Once I got to college, I was really glad I didn't skip ahead. I'm very thankful that my parents pushed the school to let me move ahead when I made it clear I wanted that. I'm also glad they didn't force me to do it after they fought so hard to get the school to let me. They were very supportive, but not over bearing. If your kid wants to move ahead, help him. If he doesn't, don't force him. One of my dad's coworkers forced his daughter through school ahead of schedule like you want to. She graduated high school at an early age, went to Princeton, and was out by age 18. She went to med school and was a doctor by 22. She can't get any patients. Nobody actually wants a doctor who is 22. She is depressed, doing research (that she doesn't want to do) and is pissed off about missing out on high school, college, etc. For what? The end result was his coworker getting divorced and barely ever seeing his daughter. On the other hand, I worked with a guy who graduated high school early, graduated college by the time he was 20, and he's one of the smartest, nicest, most succesful people I know. My personal experience is that the BS is late elementary and middle school. If your parents teach you simple math and reading at home you can jump ahead 2-3 years. By high school the availability of AP classes, independent study, and better electives (music, stagecraft, architecture, art, etc) make it far more enjoyable. I don't think shortening high school makes as much sense as shortening middle school. I also think you have to listen to what your kid wants to do, not go based on what you want them to do.

aqme28 14y ago

"Most of the "normal" young people I meet these days behave either like wild Indians (feather not dot) or slovenly Barbarians." I hope you realize this is incredibly racist.