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I’d say most of them have and these substances prove nothing close to what you’re suggesting. Yes they hint that the whole universe, at least our ideas of it,

I’d say most of them have and these substances prove nothing close to what you’re suggesting. Yes they hint that the whole universe, at least our ideas of it, being an illusion made up by your brain. This isn’t consciousness though, your awareness remains the same it is simply your perception that is changed by mind altering drugs and none of these philosophers would argue your perception isn’t a product of the body. Awareness != perception. A lot of people itt are mixing up consciousness, experience, with brain activity like trains of thought or external perception. Try meditating for a bit and you see that these are not what you are, you are not your thoughts.

cess11 3y ago
Aware is germanic, perceive is latin, it's the same concept. Maybe meditation doesn't have the results you think it has? As for what drug experiences can tell us, I didn't claim they say anything about "the whole universe". They can however tell us other things. For one, LSD causes parts of the brain that usually work in a synchronised manner, like a system of cooperating parts, to loosen from each other, which is probably why one can experience a loss of coherence in perception of self and the immediate surroundings. At the very least it tells us that this molecule interacts with the biological foundation for experiencing the world as coherent, understandable, and when we're under its influence this experience is distorted or dissolved. This tears into the feelings foundational to big religions, the perception of the universe as created, ordered, having a telos, can easily be temporarily disrupted, and hence we know that this 'wisdom' is contingent on us ignoring the possibility that it is a product of evolution rather than a divine gift or insight gained through spiritual exercise. You could of course project magical thinking onto such molecules and consider them demonic or whatever, but good luck keeping that up under capitalism without being victimised by conspiracy theory grifters, marketing specialists and so on.
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  Psychedelics are very likely the basis of many religions, including Christianity. Having magical religious experiences on LSD is practically a meme, so I am not sure what would lead you to suggest otherwise.
  - cess11 3y ago
    Christianity was founded as a monastic, ascetic, apocalyptic sect in antique judaism, and got the shape recognisable to most of us through roman imperial politics. If you think those jews or romans used psychedelics I'd like to know why. There might be traces of cannabis in the hebrew Bible but it's not a common theme and pretty much every word this idea is usually based on could be a reference to something else. There are religions using psychedelics, some of them probably quite old, but none of the big, popular ones do. In part this is explained by european (and similar) traditions surrounding government, which tends to be very suspicious of strong feelings and competition from drug use when it comes to the loyalty of their subjects, so for a religion to become a societal institution it has to get rid of the drugs if there are any. Edit: As for modern interpretations of e.g. LSD as a religious experience says more about cultural poverty and millenia of ideological subjugation than the experience itself.
    - Workaccount2 3y ago
      There is a strong case to be made that Jesus was basically a rip of Dionysus; ritual cannibal sacrifice (eat my body and drink my blood), son of zeus (son of god), born to a virgin when visited by an eagle (born to virgin mary when visited by a dove), resurrection in the spring (Easter), both turned water into wine, and Dionysus wore a crown of thorns. Dionysian festivals, although not proven (it's hard to find samples of ancient ritual wine), are strongly suspected to mixed something psychedelic (probably ergot) into wine as part of their ceremonies. Of course, that trance inducing wine was the blood of Dionysus. And how could it not be? You drink it and feel the essence of a god right after (the trip).
      - cess11 3y ago
        Sounds like pretty shallow Holy Blood, Holy Grail stuff to me. It is fairly firmly established that roman mystery religion shaped some of early christianity, in particular the Mithras mysteries.
        Workaccount2 3y ago
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Your pedantic preaching about language is irrelevant to anything I said, nothing of which was invented by me it’s simply push back against uninformed things you said about others, thus I see no reason to engage with you any further.
  - cess11 3y ago
    I quipped about etymology as an invite for you to make it clearer what difference you were refering to. If you find that so insensitive that you can't continue the conversation that's fine with me.
- booleandilemma 3y ago
  This comment made me nauseous.

cess11 3y ago

Aware is germanic, perceive is latin, it's the same concept. Maybe meditation doesn't have the results you think it has? As for what drug experiences can tell us, I didn't claim they say anything about "the whole universe". They can however tell us other things. For one, LSD causes parts of the brain that usually work in a synchronised manner, like a system of cooperating parts, to loosen from each other, which is probably why one can experience a loss of coherence in perception of self and the immediate surroundings. At the very least it tells us that this molecule interacts with the biological foundation for experiencing the world as coherent, understandable, and when we're under its influence this experience is distorted or dissolved. This tears into the feelings foundational to big religions, the perception of the universe as created, ordered, having a telos, can easily be temporarily disrupted, and hence we know that this 'wisdom' is contingent on us ignoring the possibility that it is a product of evolution rather than a divine gift or insight gained through spiritual exercise. You could of course project magical thinking onto such molecules and consider them demonic or whatever, but good luck keeping that up under capitalism without being victimised by conspiracy theory grifters, marketing specialists and so on.

Workaccount2 3y ago
Psychedelics are very likely the basis of many religions, including Christianity. Having magical religious experiences on LSD is practically a meme, so I am not sure what would lead you to suggest otherwise.
- cess11 3y ago
  Christianity was founded as a monastic, ascetic, apocalyptic sect in antique judaism, and got the shape recognisable to most of us through roman imperial politics. If you think those jews or romans used psychedelics I'd like to know why. There might be traces of cannabis in the hebrew Bible but it's not a common theme and pretty much every word this idea is usually based on could be a reference to something else. There are religions using psychedelics, some of them probably quite old, but none of the big, popular ones do. In part this is explained by european (and similar) traditions surrounding government, which tends to be very suspicious of strong feelings and competition from drug use when it comes to the loyalty of their subjects, so for a religion to become a societal institution it has to get rid of the drugs if there are any. Edit: As for modern interpretations of e.g. LSD as a religious experience says more about cultural poverty and millenia of ideological subjugation than the experience itself.
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    There is a strong case to be made that Jesus was basically a rip of Dionysus; ritual cannibal sacrifice (eat my body and drink my blood), son of zeus (son of god), born to a virgin when visited by an eagle (born to virgin mary when visited by a dove), resurrection in the spring (Easter), both turned water into wine, and Dionysus wore a crown of thorns. Dionysian festivals, although not proven (it's hard to find samples of ancient ritual wine), are strongly suspected to mixed something psychedelic (probably ergot) into wine as part of their ceremonies. Of course, that trance inducing wine was the blood of Dionysus. And how could it not be? You drink it and feel the essence of a god right after (the trip).
    - cess11 3y ago
      Sounds like pretty shallow Holy Blood, Holy Grail stuff to me. It is fairly firmly established that roman mystery religion shaped some of early christianity, in particular the Mithras mysteries.
      - Workaccount2 3y ago
edgyquant 3y ago
Your pedantic preaching about language is irrelevant to anything I said, nothing of which was invented by me it’s simply push back against uninformed things you said about others, thus I see no reason to engage with you any further.
- cess11 3y ago
  I quipped about etymology as an invite for you to make it clearer what difference you were refering to. If you find that so insensitive that you can't continue the conversation that's fine with me.
booleandilemma 3y ago
This comment made me nauseous.