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> Same goes for rejecting Nietzsche, famous anti-nihilist, and then a few paragraphs later rejecting nihilism. I don't see anything wrong with that. For instan

> Same goes for rejecting Nietzsche, famous anti-nihilist, and then a few paragraphs later rejecting nihilism. I don't see anything wrong with that. For instance, Timothy Dexter was a wingnut who rejected prescriptivism in linguistics. Prescriptivism is generally unpopular today. That doesn't mean we have to praise Timothy Dexter for being right about anything else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pickle_for_the_Knowing_Ones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pickle_for_the_Knowing_Ones

cess11 3y ago
Never heard of him. In what area of philosophy did Dexter have an influence comparable to Nietzsche?
- card_zero 3y ago
  Or for instance Alasdair MacIntyre is in the same boat of being critical of Nietzsche (who after all was responsible for some terrible things, such as Pete Docherty) and yet disagreeing with nihilism, like most people do. This is a completely coherent position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre
  - cess11 3y ago
    Don't remember much about MacIntyre from my years as a theology student, but he was a catholic, no? If so, he doesn't disagree with nihilism as understood and critiqued by Nietzsche, on the contrary. I've never heard of Pete Docherty.
    - card_zero 3y ago
      I struggle to make sense of the implication that Catholics are nihilists (even in some narrow sense). * Nietzsche saw nihilism as revelling in nothingness, but also as coming in a preferable version which was simply about iconoclasm and modernization. * He saw Christianity as having a purpose of underpinning objective knowledge, thus opposing nihilism, but as failing in this, due to the erosion of belief and rise of skepticism. I don't know if you're making a point specific to Catholicism, maybe. Can't work out what.
      - cess11 3y ago
        Christianity is life-denying, world-denying. Nietzsche concluded that christian ethics lead to life-denying societies. Foundational to christianity is the belief that this world in which we find ourselves is a temporary punishment, and that this life only has meaning to the extent that we use our time to endure suffering and restrict ourselves. If we do this, we will then be rewarded with an actual life, an eternity of having the pleasure to watch our enemies suffer. Another foundational belief is that all humans are born defective, and as a consequence the ideal is to never procreate. The most devout christians live in gender segregated communes and (officially) never engage in sexual activity. What could be more life-denying and nihilistic? Personally I also find the solution to this original debt, this ever-present defect, highly suspicious. That is, that it needs to be repayed through human sacrifice, and then we all need to partake in this sacrifice through symbolic or actual cannibalism. So, yes, Nietzsche saw in this a 'will to nothingness', a categorical denial of the possibility of a meaningful life and even a denial of life itself. He found it interesting, however. Compared to the ancient greeks he as a philologist knew quite a bit about he found the christians and the power dynamics they introduce devious and in some regards more sophisticated. 'You might be dominating me now, but you just wait, when Christ returns he will put you to eternal torment and I'll be watching, wallowing in the pleasure I derive from your suffering' is rather devious, both as a psychological power play and as an ethos for society at large. From how you're describing MacIntyre he seems to have been mostly preoccupied with defending a dying academic epistemology and not really have engaged with the text of Nietzsche.
        card_zero 3y ago
        In medieval Christianity there were stylites dwelling up their pillars and (some thousand years later) anchorites sealed in their cells, and all this stuff about life-denying rings true except that Catholics, in the modern era at least, are mostly pro-life and anti-contraception and breed like rabbits. MacIntyre wrote a book called "After Virtue" which is mostly posing Nietzsche against Aristotle, and his late-life conversion to Catholicism was because of Thomas Aquinas, who was an Aristotle fanboy. I don't know how he squared this with the supposed virtues of asceticism and living for the next world. Religion gets into philosophy far too much, and kind of makes a big mess, since it doesn't have to make sense.

cess11 3y ago

Never heard of him. In what area of philosophy did Dexter have an influence comparable to Nietzsche?

card_zero 3y ago
Or for instance Alasdair MacIntyre is in the same boat of being critical of Nietzsche (who after all was responsible for some terrible things, such as Pete Docherty) and yet disagreeing with nihilism, like most people do. This is a completely coherent position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre
- cess11 3y ago
  Don't remember much about MacIntyre from my years as a theology student, but he was a catholic, no? If so, he doesn't disagree with nihilism as understood and critiqued by Nietzsche, on the contrary. I've never heard of Pete Docherty.
  - card_zero 3y ago
    I struggle to make sense of the implication that Catholics are nihilists (even in some narrow sense). * Nietzsche saw nihilism as revelling in nothingness, but also as coming in a preferable version which was simply about iconoclasm and modernization. * He saw Christianity as having a purpose of underpinning objective knowledge, thus opposing nihilism, but as failing in this, due to the erosion of belief and rise of skepticism. I don't know if you're making a point specific to Catholicism, maybe. Can't work out what.
    - cess11 3y ago
      Christianity is life-denying, world-denying. Nietzsche concluded that christian ethics lead to life-denying societies. Foundational to christianity is the belief that this world in which we find ourselves is a temporary punishment, and that this life only has meaning to the extent that we use our time to endure suffering and restrict ourselves. If we do this, we will then be rewarded with an actual life, an eternity of having the pleasure to watch our enemies suffer. Another foundational belief is that all humans are born defective, and as a consequence the ideal is to never procreate. The most devout christians live in gender segregated communes and (officially) never engage in sexual activity. What could be more life-denying and nihilistic? Personally I also find the solution to this original debt, this ever-present defect, highly suspicious. That is, that it needs to be repayed through human sacrifice, and then we all need to partake in this sacrifice through symbolic or actual cannibalism. So, yes, Nietzsche saw in this a 'will to nothingness', a categorical denial of the possibility of a meaningful life and even a denial of life itself. He found it interesting, however. Compared to the ancient greeks he as a philologist knew quite a bit about he found the christians and the power dynamics they introduce devious and in some regards more sophisticated. 'You might be dominating me now, but you just wait, when Christ returns he will put you to eternal torment and I'll be watching, wallowing in the pleasure I derive from your suffering' is rather devious, both as a psychological power play and as an ethos for society at large. From how you're describing MacIntyre he seems to have been mostly preoccupied with defending a dying academic epistemology and not really have engaged with the text of Nietzsche.
      - card_zero 3y ago
        In medieval Christianity there were stylites dwelling up their pillars and (some thousand years later) anchorites sealed in their cells, and all this stuff about life-denying rings true except that Catholics, in the modern era at least, are mostly pro-life and anti-contraception and breed like rabbits. MacIntyre wrote a book called "After Virtue" which is mostly posing Nietzsche against Aristotle, and his late-life conversion to Catholicism was because of Thomas Aquinas, who was an Aristotle fanboy. I don't know how he squared this with the supposed virtues of asceticism and living for the next world. Religion gets into philosophy far too much, and kind of makes a big mess, since it doesn't have to make sense.