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> We wouldn’t see it as “consciousness” even if it was only somewhat different from ours (animals); Most humans see animals as having a consciousness with feel

> We wouldn’t see it as “consciousness” even if it was only somewhat different from ours (animals); Most humans see animals as having a consciousness with feelings and dreams like us. Why would you think otherwise? Why else would it be illegal to torture animals? That we even call it "torture" means we think the animals suffers from it, we don't say we torture a rock when we crack it, that means we see them as having a consciousness.

card_zero 3y ago
The human anxiety about animal suffering needs arguments to support it. You can't argue from it to support something else. It's already a weak position that we just go along with because of feels.
- Jensson 3y ago
  > The human anxiety about animal suffering needs arguments to support it You want arguments supporting that humans dislike seeing animals suffer? To most people that would be obvious, I'm not sure what to say.
  - card_zero 3y ago
    No, that's not what I meant. I'm saying that reasoning from anxiety is not valid.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      It is valid, we are talking about what humans thinks, not what is true. If humans thinks animals are conscious then they think animals are conscious, doesn't mean animals actually are conscious. And the fact that I don't get downvoted here is evidence people here also think that animals are conscious, which supports my argument that people think animals are conscious.
      - card_zero 3y ago
        Oh, OK. I think that the "because animals are conscious" part is only retro-fitted to the "don't make animals suffer (because I don't like it)" argument. I think it's a somewhat disingenuous post-hoc justification, but people convince themselves of it. So in a sense, yes, they think animals are conscious: most people will readily take this argument out, parade it around, and sometimes they do science that's supposed to relate to it, or refer to that science and think and worry about the argument ... but I still think it arises from mere justification of a feeling and is essentially hollow and therefore (breathe) although people say they see animals as conscious, they aren't really meaningfully looking because they already decided in advance, and it's not really sincere thought that they put into it. But this is just, like, my opinion.
- simonh 3y ago
  I think animals having conscious experience seems a reasonable opinion. Many animals display a lot of behaviours we have in common with them, they have similar senses, similar emotional responses, similar social behaviours, even similar reasoning abilities in a lot of contexts. Tye brain regions with activity associated with these behaviours correspond to equivalent regions in our brains. Its true we have additional brain structures responsible for higher reasoning and linguistic abilities that other animals don’t share, but it seems likely that these features are layered on top of those other capabilities we inherited from our common ancestors with other mammals. In support of this, there are some behaviours we share with other animals that are not conscious, or at least that are so automatic that we are essentially mere observers of our own behaviour. This includes many instinctive behaviours, and these are often shared with lower order animals that do not display sophisticated awareness of their own existence and that of others. It seems reasonable that we inherited those behaviours from common ancestors with such animals (lizards, frogs, etc) before self consciousness evolved.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
(Many, but not all) Animals do in fact have consciousness, emotions, and dreams(the kind that happens during sleep that is). It's not just human projection. Most animals don't have self-awareness, though some even have that, like great apes, certain cetaceans, elephants, and possibly even some birds. The only things that seem to be uniquely human are complex language, cultural evolution and prolonged neuroplasticity during childhood and early adulthood.
- qayxc 3y ago
  I think the main issue is that far too many people think of consciousness in terms of a binary state (i.e. consciousness is present or not) instead of a spectrum. Even in humans the state of being animals that possess consciousness varies over the course of time: new-born infants are in a different state of consciousness than 4 year old children, for example. Not to mention our regular fading in- and out and transitioning between various states of consciousness during our sleep cycle. The first important step towards a better understanding that would allow proper assessment would be to develop a sound metric to allow qualifying consciousness. Doesn't have to be precise, but a scale from say 0 (non-conscious) to 100 (awake neuro-typical sober human adult) would be a great step forward IMHO.
- xcode42 3y ago
  > (Many, but not all) Animals do in fact have consciousness, emotions, and dreams(the kind that happens during sleep that is). It's not just human projection. Maybe we are defining consciousness differently but how do you know? how do you prove that? Don't get me wrong I too believe that animals have consciousness, but I think humans other than me have consciousness too and I can't prove that either. That's a big part of the whole issue particularly in regards to whether the current ai of the week is conscious or not. You can demonstrate that animal and human brains achieve similar brain states given similar stimuli but how do you demonstrate that those brain states are sufficient for/require consciousness? for all we know every animal is a philosophical zombie and we can't prove otherwise.
strogonoff 3y ago
Most humans eat animals and indirectly participate in animal torture by eating meat of animals who spend their lives from birth to death in conditions indistinguishable from torture. There may be a stated belief in animal consciousness, but revealed preferences show otherwise.

card_zero 3y ago

The human anxiety about animal suffering needs arguments to support it. You can't argue from it to support something else. It's already a weak position that we just go along with because of feels.

Jensson 3y ago
> The human anxiety about animal suffering needs arguments to support it You want arguments supporting that humans dislike seeing animals suffer? To most people that would be obvious, I'm not sure what to say.
- card_zero 3y ago
  No, that's not what I meant. I'm saying that reasoning from anxiety is not valid.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    It is valid, we are talking about what humans thinks, not what is true. If humans thinks animals are conscious then they think animals are conscious, doesn't mean animals actually are conscious. And the fact that I don't get downvoted here is evidence people here also think that animals are conscious, which supports my argument that people think animals are conscious.
    - card_zero 3y ago
      Oh, OK. I think that the "because animals are conscious" part is only retro-fitted to the "don't make animals suffer (because I don't like it)" argument. I think it's a somewhat disingenuous post-hoc justification, but people convince themselves of it. So in a sense, yes, they think animals are conscious: most people will readily take this argument out, parade it around, and sometimes they do science that's supposed to relate to it, or refer to that science and think and worry about the argument ... but I still think it arises from mere justification of a feeling and is essentially hollow and therefore (breathe) although people say they see animals as conscious, they aren't really meaningfully looking because they already decided in advance, and it's not really sincere thought that they put into it. But this is just, like, my opinion.
simonh 3y ago
I think animals having conscious experience seems a reasonable opinion. Many animals display a lot of behaviours we have in common with them, they have similar senses, similar emotional responses, similar social behaviours, even similar reasoning abilities in a lot of contexts. Tye brain regions with activity associated with these behaviours correspond to equivalent regions in our brains. Its true we have additional brain structures responsible for higher reasoning and linguistic abilities that other animals don’t share, but it seems likely that these features are layered on top of those other capabilities we inherited from our common ancestors with other mammals. In support of this, there are some behaviours we share with other animals that are not conscious, or at least that are so automatic that we are essentially mere observers of our own behaviour. This includes many instinctive behaviours, and these are often shared with lower order animals that do not display sophisticated awareness of their own existence and that of others. It seems reasonable that we inherited those behaviours from common ancestors with such animals (lizards, frogs, etc) before self consciousness evolved.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

(Many, but not all) Animals do in fact have consciousness, emotions, and dreams(the kind that happens during sleep that is). It's not just human projection. Most animals don't have self-awareness, though some even have that, like great apes, certain cetaceans, elephants, and possibly even some birds. The only things that seem to be uniquely human are complex language, cultural evolution and prolonged neuroplasticity during childhood and early adulthood.

qayxc 3y ago
I think the main issue is that far too many people think of consciousness in terms of a binary state (i.e. consciousness is present or not) instead of a spectrum. Even in humans the state of being animals that possess consciousness varies over the course of time: new-born infants are in a different state of consciousness than 4 year old children, for example. Not to mention our regular fading in- and out and transitioning between various states of consciousness during our sleep cycle. The first important step towards a better understanding that would allow proper assessment would be to develop a sound metric to allow qualifying consciousness. Doesn't have to be precise, but a scale from say 0 (non-conscious) to 100 (awake neuro-typical sober human adult) would be a great step forward IMHO.
xcode42 3y ago
> (Many, but not all) Animals do in fact have consciousness, emotions, and dreams(the kind that happens during sleep that is). It's not just human projection. Maybe we are defining consciousness differently but how do you know? how do you prove that? Don't get me wrong I too believe that animals have consciousness, but I think humans other than me have consciousness too and I can't prove that either. That's a big part of the whole issue particularly in regards to whether the current ai of the week is conscious or not. You can demonstrate that animal and human brains achieve similar brain states given similar stimuli but how do you demonstrate that those brain states are sufficient for/require consciousness? for all we know every animal is a philosophical zombie and we can't prove otherwise.

strogonoff 3y ago

Most humans eat animals and indirectly participate in animal torture by eating meat of animals who spend their lives from birth to death in conditions indistinguishable from torture. There may be a stated belief in animal consciousness, but revealed preferences show otherwise.