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> Ideally the tricks I’m suggesting here will be almost invisible, affecting readers in a subliminal way Why would I want a math paper to be subliminally manip

> Ideally the tricks I’m suggesting here will be almost invisible, affecting readers in a subliminal way Why would I want a math paper to be subliminally manipulating me? I feel like everyone has been watching too much YouTube/tiktok and is buying into the notion that clickbait isn't just a vicious feedback cycle destroying everyone's integrity.

johncarlosbaez 3y ago
Everything is always subliminally affecting you. It might as well do it in a helpful way.
- twelfthnight 3y ago
  > everything is always subliminally affecting you Right, but certain methods are more effective than others. This paper is arguing and encouraging exactly how to manipulate more effectively. > It might as well do it in a helpful way Being more effective in teaching I agree is a good thing. But a math paper isn't for teaching, it's for showing a proof or making an argument. I just think we ought to set standards on academic research to remain as neutral as possible to let ideas flourish on merit rather than cunning tricks. EDIT: I get that a career in academia requires all these games to get more citations. Looks at ML research, I feel like abstracts are written by used car salesman nowadays. So like, if you have to do it do it. But we ought to call it out from time to time.
  - elbear 3y ago
    I think it was the word "subliminal" that made you think of manipulation. On the other hand, I read the quote you posted as meeting the reader at their level and guiding them to a clearer, deeper understanding by providing information in a logical, intuitive way. This would mean, for example, providing real-world context for each abstract concept introduced, rather than just leaving the concept by itself together with an abstract definition.
ajkjk 3y ago
I mean.. It's no different than a story being written better instead of worse. The dry paper is just worse in every way, at both the author's goals and your goals.
- twelfthnight 3y ago
  > This may require “watering down” the results being described — stating corollaries or special cases instead of the full theorems in their maximal generality. Sometimes you may even need to leave out technical conditions required for the results to really be true. This is a trade off, don't you think? Without the marketing, the paper would be more complete and correct.
  - lupire 3y ago
    No, your exercpt is not complete and correct. "So, the introduction to a math paper should set the scene as simply as possible" The introduction is not the whole paper.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - twelfthnight 3y ago
      If I have a salad and I water down just the dressing the whole salad is still worse, no? Unless you are saying the introduction isn't important, in which case why would you need to change it at all to make the paper more engaging?
      - ajkjk 3y ago
        In that odd metaphor the dressing started disgusting and you're watering it down in order to make it palatable.
  - Ar-Curunir 3y ago
    No, you skipped the context, which says that in the introduction you talk about special cases to build intuition, and then provide the general result in the technical part.

johncarlosbaez 3y ago

Everything is always subliminally affecting you. It might as well do it in a helpful way.

twelfthnight 3y ago
> everything is always subliminally affecting you Right, but certain methods are more effective than others. This paper is arguing and encouraging exactly how to manipulate more effectively. > It might as well do it in a helpful way Being more effective in teaching I agree is a good thing. But a math paper isn't for teaching, it's for showing a proof or making an argument. I just think we ought to set standards on academic research to remain as neutral as possible to let ideas flourish on merit rather than cunning tricks. EDIT: I get that a career in academia requires all these games to get more citations. Looks at ML research, I feel like abstracts are written by used car salesman nowadays. So like, if you have to do it do it. But we ought to call it out from time to time.
- elbear 3y ago
  I think it was the word "subliminal" that made you think of manipulation. On the other hand, I read the quote you posted as meeting the reader at their level and guiding them to a clearer, deeper understanding by providing information in a logical, intuitive way. This would mean, for example, providing real-world context for each abstract concept introduced, rather than just leaving the concept by itself together with an abstract definition.

ajkjk 3y ago

I mean.. It's no different than a story being written better instead of worse. The dry paper is just worse in every way, at both the author's goals and your goals.

twelfthnight 3y ago
> This may require “watering down” the results being described — stating corollaries or special cases instead of the full theorems in their maximal generality. Sometimes you may even need to leave out technical conditions required for the results to really be true. This is a trade off, don't you think? Without the marketing, the paper would be more complete and correct.
- lupire 3y ago
  No, your exercpt is not complete and correct. "So, the introduction to a math paper should set the scene as simply as possible" The introduction is not the whole paper.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - twelfthnight 3y ago
    If I have a salad and I water down just the dressing the whole salad is still worse, no? Unless you are saying the introduction isn't important, in which case why would you need to change it at all to make the paper more engaging?
    - ajkjk 3y ago
      In that odd metaphor the dressing started disgusting and you're watering it down in order to make it palatable.
- Ar-Curunir 3y ago
  No, you skipped the context, which says that in the introduction you talk about special cases to build intuition, and then provide the general result in the technical part.