7 ms·

how can tata motors build a sub US $10k fully electric cars with 4/5 star ncap safety rating, same for byd and yet american companies seem to struggle with 2-5x

how can tata motors build a sub US $10k fully electric cars with 4/5 star ncap safety rating, same for byd and yet american companies seem to struggle with 2-5x that figure? why does every american need an ev that has to have 1000 mile range or it wont sell? this tata motors car, tiago ev has like 250Km advertised rannge. real world people say 180/190km. thats A LOT for city driving. you dont use your car for food delivery, do you? secondly, on highways there are chargers popping up so it wouldnt matter

snakeyjake 3y ago
1. Teeny-tiny cars. 2. Government subsidies. 3. Workers paid poverty wages who live in company dorms that are so dilapidated that Tata evicted workers from some of the oldest ones last year. 4. Environmental laws so lax that they just dump dioxins into the rivers and you are jailed for sedition if you try, like Disha Ravi, to report on it or organize protests against it.
- josefresco 3y ago
  The Tiago.ev(1) is small, but not what I would consider "teeny-tiny". It's about the same size as my Kia Rio which is also small but easily fits 5 people. Your other points might be valid. (1) https://ev.tatamotors.com/tiago/ev.html https://ev.tatamotors.com/tiago/ev.html
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    I wouldn't say Kia fits 5 easily... But 4 in not horrible comfort. It is entirely reasonable car for large segment of population.
    - josefresco 3y ago
      Do you own one? Because I do, and I have 5 people in my family (3 teens) that I transport often. It's pretty easy. I don't know what else to say. We're not giant people but I'm 6'1". I also own a Super Duty, I'm not some kind of small car weirdo.
      - Ekaros 3y ago
        I do. Fitting 3 in back is always kinda pain, but then again I'm one the driving.
        josefresco 3y ago
        Love to see another Kia Rio owner - do you own the 5-door? Mine is new, and just after I purchased I heard Kia is killing it. The dealerships certainly tried to get my into a Forte but I knew what I wanted. It's my "Korean GTI" I respect your opinion and thankfully you're speaking from actual experience (a rarity online!)
        Ekaros 3y ago
        2015. But then again, I always felt most standard cars are tight for 3 in back seat. So easy to me includes absolutely no struggle with seat belt. And minimal obstruction for floor space in the middle.
lyime 3y ago
Lower cost of manufacturing. Everything in the US costs more money because of labor costs.
threeseed 3y ago
> thats A LOT for city driving Many drivers choose a car based on aspirational reasons that are detached from reality. e.g. buying an SUV for adventurous road trips, a truck so they can carry lots of large items. Which is why range anxiety is still a big deal.
- denimnerd42 3y ago
  Is it really aspirational if you do it? We take 4-5 1600 mile round trip road trips per year. It's 14hrs door to door and completable in 1 day. SUV makes it possible comfortably in a way a model 3 would not. 5 might be a lot but I think a lot of families take at least 1/1.5 full day trip in the car. go to the beach, etc.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    > We take 4-5 1600 mile round trip road trips per year. Most households do not do this. The average car goes like 13,000mi a year, you're doing more than that 4-5 times? You're 4-5x beyond the average. EDIT: sorry, somehow saw an extra zero in there.
    - denimnerd42 3y ago
      1600*5 is 8000. we drive 12-15,000 miles per year on that vehicle. i drive 8000 per year on my other which is a tiny commuter car. we don't drive more miles than average.
  - Grustaf 3y ago
    > Is it really aspirational if you do it? No, aspirational means that you aspire to do it, which is probably why most people buy most cars, at least in the US. One exception does not disprove that theory. If you only need the range 4 times, let alone once, a year, why not rent a car for that rare and buy something more optimal for your daily needs? That's what we do, and our daily need is no car at all.
alborzb 3y ago
I can't answer most of your comment's questions, but to just answer the first point - it's about cost of labor. Tata motors are made in India. BYD is Chinese. Both involved much lower cost of labor, both from the engineering perspective and the manufacturing too. Heck, even Tesla themselves have a factory in China and from the most recent figures I could find, their Chinese built Tesla's are 40% cheaper than the American built Teslas -- https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicles/tesla-40-percent-cheaper-in-china-than-us-prices-cut-again https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicl...
- hakfoo 3y ago
  Serious question: how much of the cost of a car is labour? I figure they've probably automated as much human work out of the product as possible, both as a money-saver and to deal with human limits on consistency and the ability to chuck 500kg assemblies around a factory floor. If they can make a $15,000 car in China, they can make it for $18,000 in South Dakota.
  - gertop 3y ago
    Yeah, cost of labor excuse seems to be mostly bullshit. Half the parts in a Tesla are still made in China. How many hours truly go in assembly and giga pressing in America? The price difference is simply due to Tesla having bigger batteries, bigger motors, bigger hype, and I'm going to assume all those FSD engineers aren't cheap (Even though they have yet to produce anything of value).
  - jjk166 3y ago
    A $100,000 robot arm that runs 24/7/365 for 10 years is still about $0.60 per hour to operate before you even consider maintenance. That's about 3 times what entry level Chinese factory workers make on a per-hour basis.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 3y ago
> thats A LOT for city driving. Most of America is very much NOT city. If you start on the East coast of South Carolina and drive West, after 9.5 hours of driving you'll be in...South Carolina still. > secondly, on highways there are chargers popping up so it wouldnt matter Call me when fully recharging an EV takes the same time as fully fueling an ICE car. I don't want to sit at a station for 45 minutes every 180km on my road trip.
- jeltz 3y ago
  Most of China isn't a city either, but just like in the US most people live in cities.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    A good example of the failure of expressing something as either urban or rural. There's worlds of difference between what a lot of US "urban" areas look like compared to China's "urban" areas. You see those photos of rows and rows of giant apartment towers in Chinese cities? Now compare that to photos of Atlanta or Nashville or Dallas or LA. Notice how there's a big lack of the oceans of giant apartment towers? Maybe that makes some kind of difference in transportation.
    - sofixa 3y ago
      This argument is just.... wrong. For a video describing how wrong it is, refer to Not Just Bikes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REni8Oi1QJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REni8Oi1QJQ For text and numbers: Shenzhen urban area is 1,748 km2. Atlanta is 353.04km2. Los Angeles City is 1,299 km2 (yes the metro area is quite larger, but so is Shenzhen's). The average length of a trip in the US is 19.63 km. This is simple basic stuff. There is absolutely nothing that makes Americans uniquely need tank-sized vehicles with 1000km range, even with the uniquely terrible urban design that most American cities have.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        Please, show me a view like this in Atlanta: https://external-preview.redd.it/l-nJkXPlhrxDStYQNwQ7BUfpNFcm3fmkMtwq2rS1-D8.jpg?auto=webp&s=e2b2dac1d10f2cadb273c976b0da1ad5d9bd383e https://external-preview.redd.it/l-nJkXPlhrxDStYQNwQ7BUfpNFc... https://live.staticflickr.com/2486/4155417202_9510efd2dc_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/2486/4155417202_9510efd2dc_b.j... Hop on Google Maps. Just look for yourself. Does Shenzen look like Atlanta Or LA? Where's the seas of single-family houses? They're not there. Have all the text and numbers you want, just look and see. If you really think Shenzen's urban areas look like Atlanta or LA after spending two minutes on Google Maps, you're delusional. > uniquely need tank-sized vehicles with 1000km range I'm not arguing people need 1,000km range, but personally I wouldn't buy a car without at least 150+mi range for a non-road trip car given the realities of the city I live in. At least monthly I drive >100mi round trip and would like some amount of range extra in there, as the destination doesn't yet have charging. And I'm pretty light on driving!
geodel 3y ago
I heard this car is so amazing it can be charged with simple mobile battery pack plugged into its USB-C charging port. This seems to be total game changer.
- 2Gkashmiri 3y ago
  oh no
vel0city 3y ago
A Tiago.ev is 14" shorter than a Chevy Bolt, a car lots of Americans already think is too small for their needs. The Bolt has over 100mi more range, which most Americans also think is too short. If GM made the Bolt a foot shorter with half the range, they probably would be able to hit a little over $10k while having American union workers assembling it. But they would have sold even fewer.

snakeyjake 3y ago

1. Teeny-tiny cars. 2. Government subsidies. 3. Workers paid poverty wages who live in company dorms that are so dilapidated that Tata evicted workers from some of the oldest ones last year. 4. Environmental laws so lax that they just dump dioxins into the rivers and you are jailed for sedition if you try, like Disha Ravi, to report on it or organize protests against it.

josefresco 3y ago
The Tiago.ev(1) is small, but not what I would consider "teeny-tiny". It's about the same size as my Kia Rio which is also small but easily fits 5 people. Your other points might be valid. (1) https://ev.tatamotors.com/tiago/ev.html https://ev.tatamotors.com/tiago/ev.html
- Ekaros 3y ago
  I wouldn't say Kia fits 5 easily... But 4 in not horrible comfort. It is entirely reasonable car for large segment of population.
  - josefresco 3y ago
    Do you own one? Because I do, and I have 5 people in my family (3 teens) that I transport often. It's pretty easy. I don't know what else to say. We're not giant people but I'm 6'1". I also own a Super Duty, I'm not some kind of small car weirdo.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      I do. Fitting 3 in back is always kinda pain, but then again I'm one the driving.
      - josefresco 3y ago
        Love to see another Kia Rio owner - do you own the 5-door? Mine is new, and just after I purchased I heard Kia is killing it. The dealerships certainly tried to get my into a Forte but I knew what I wanted. It's my "Korean GTI" I respect your opinion and thankfully you're speaking from actual experience (a rarity online!)
        Ekaros 3y ago
        2015. But then again, I always felt most standard cars are tight for 3 in back seat. So easy to me includes absolutely no struggle with seat belt. And minimal obstruction for floor space in the middle.

lyime 3y ago

Lower cost of manufacturing. Everything in the US costs more money because of labor costs.

threeseed 3y ago

> thats A LOT for city driving Many drivers choose a car based on aspirational reasons that are detached from reality. e.g. buying an SUV for adventurous road trips, a truck so they can carry lots of large items. Which is why range anxiety is still a big deal.

denimnerd42 3y ago
Is it really aspirational if you do it? We take 4-5 1600 mile round trip road trips per year. It's 14hrs door to door and completable in 1 day. SUV makes it possible comfortably in a way a model 3 would not. 5 might be a lot but I think a lot of families take at least 1/1.5 full day trip in the car. go to the beach, etc.
- vel0city 3y ago
  > We take 4-5 1600 mile round trip road trips per year. Most households do not do this. The average car goes like 13,000mi a year, you're doing more than that 4-5 times? You're 4-5x beyond the average. EDIT: sorry, somehow saw an extra zero in there.
  - denimnerd42 3y ago
    1600*5 is 8000. we drive 12-15,000 miles per year on that vehicle. i drive 8000 per year on my other which is a tiny commuter car. we don't drive more miles than average.
- Grustaf 3y ago
  > Is it really aspirational if you do it? No, aspirational means that you aspire to do it, which is probably why most people buy most cars, at least in the US. One exception does not disprove that theory. If you only need the range 4 times, let alone once, a year, why not rent a car for that rare and buy something more optimal for your daily needs? That's what we do, and our daily need is no car at all.

alborzb 3y ago

I can't answer most of your comment's questions, but to just answer the first point - it's about cost of labor. Tata motors are made in India. BYD is Chinese. Both involved much lower cost of labor, both from the engineering perspective and the manufacturing too. Heck, even Tesla themselves have a factory in China and from the most recent figures I could find, their Chinese built Tesla's are 40% cheaper than the American built Teslas -- https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicles/tesla-40-percent-cheaper-in-china-than-us-prices-cut-again https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicl...

hakfoo 3y ago
Serious question: how much of the cost of a car is labour? I figure they've probably automated as much human work out of the product as possible, both as a money-saver and to deal with human limits on consistency and the ability to chuck 500kg assemblies around a factory floor. If they can make a $15,000 car in China, they can make it for $18,000 in South Dakota.
- gertop 3y ago
  Yeah, cost of labor excuse seems to be mostly bullshit. Half the parts in a Tesla are still made in China. How many hours truly go in assembly and giga pressing in America? The price difference is simply due to Tesla having bigger batteries, bigger motors, bigger hype, and I'm going to assume all those FSD engineers aren't cheap (Even though they have yet to produce anything of value).
- jjk166 3y ago
  A $100,000 robot arm that runs 24/7/365 for 10 years is still about $0.60 per hour to operate before you even consider maintenance. That's about 3 times what entry level Chinese factory workers make on a per-hour basis.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 3y ago

> thats A LOT for city driving. Most of America is very much NOT city. If you start on the East coast of South Carolina and drive West, after 9.5 hours of driving you'll be in...South Carolina still. > secondly, on highways there are chargers popping up so it wouldnt matter Call me when fully recharging an EV takes the same time as fully fueling an ICE car. I don't want to sit at a station for 45 minutes every 180km on my road trip.

jeltz 3y ago
Most of China isn't a city either, but just like in the US most people live in cities.
- vel0city 3y ago
  A good example of the failure of expressing something as either urban or rural. There's worlds of difference between what a lot of US "urban" areas look like compared to China's "urban" areas. You see those photos of rows and rows of giant apartment towers in Chinese cities? Now compare that to photos of Atlanta or Nashville or Dallas or LA. Notice how there's a big lack of the oceans of giant apartment towers? Maybe that makes some kind of difference in transportation.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    This argument is just.... wrong. For a video describing how wrong it is, refer to Not Just Bikes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REni8Oi1QJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REni8Oi1QJQ For text and numbers: Shenzhen urban area is 1,748 km2. Atlanta is 353.04km2. Los Angeles City is 1,299 km2 (yes the metro area is quite larger, but so is Shenzhen's). The average length of a trip in the US is 19.63 km. This is simple basic stuff. There is absolutely nothing that makes Americans uniquely need tank-sized vehicles with 1000km range, even with the uniquely terrible urban design that most American cities have.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      Please, show me a view like this in Atlanta: https://external-preview.redd.it/l-nJkXPlhrxDStYQNwQ7BUfpNFcm3fmkMtwq2rS1-D8.jpg?auto=webp&s=e2b2dac1d10f2cadb273c976b0da1ad5d9bd383e https://external-preview.redd.it/l-nJkXPlhrxDStYQNwQ7BUfpNFc... https://live.staticflickr.com/2486/4155417202_9510efd2dc_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/2486/4155417202_9510efd2dc_b.j... Hop on Google Maps. Just look for yourself. Does Shenzen look like Atlanta Or LA? Where's the seas of single-family houses? They're not there. Have all the text and numbers you want, just look and see. If you really think Shenzen's urban areas look like Atlanta or LA after spending two minutes on Google Maps, you're delusional. > uniquely need tank-sized vehicles with 1000km range I'm not arguing people need 1,000km range, but personally I wouldn't buy a car without at least 150+mi range for a non-road trip car given the realities of the city I live in. At least monthly I drive >100mi round trip and would like some amount of range extra in there, as the destination doesn't yet have charging. And I'm pretty light on driving!

geodel 3y ago

I heard this car is so amazing it can be charged with simple mobile battery pack plugged into its USB-C charging port. This seems to be total game changer.

2Gkashmiri 3y ago
oh no

vel0city 3y ago

A Tiago.ev is 14" shorter than a Chevy Bolt, a car lots of Americans already think is too small for their needs. The Bolt has over 100mi more range, which most Americans also think is too short. If GM made the Bolt a foot shorter with half the range, they probably would be able to hit a little over $10k while having American union workers assembling it. But they would have sold even fewer.