3 ms·

Docker was only phased out in red hat distros because they don't like it and want to push Podman. Others still have docker packaged in their repos.

dralley 3y ago
A bit reductionist. IIRC the main reason Docker was phased out because Red Hat wanted to push rootless, daemonless containers, which required CGroups v2, which Docker didn't want to support for the longest time. Since both versions of CGroups can't be enabled simultaneously, and no distro wanted to go without Docker (or at least Docker-like) functionality, CGroups v2 was left in permanent stasis, and so Red Hat started Podman to break the deadlock. There were a laundry list of other technical disagreements (mostly around security) but that was the primary one. And then once Red Hat distros switched over to CGroups v2, which Podman enabled them to do, it meant that Docker wouldn't really work all that well anymore until they eventually switched to CGroups v2 also (which they eventually did a few years later). So that's why it got removed from the repos, at least originally.
tick_tock_tick 3y ago
It's not in Debian and their wiki straight up directs you to podman with a nice big scary warning about dockers root issue. https://wiki.debian.org/Docker https://wiki.debian.org/Docker Docker is dyeing on linux podman will be the only one that remains.
- aragilar 3y ago
  It's in Debian: https://packages.debian.org/sid/docker.io https://packages.debian.org/sid/docker.io
  - tick_tock_tick 3y ago
    huh well I'll be damn I thought this had already been resolved back to the mailing list it seems.
  - francislavoie 3y ago
    That version is so old. I just use Docker's own apt repo to not fall behind.
- Kwpolska 3y ago
  The page suggests podman in a small info box (one that people might skip, because it feels like the Wikipedian "this article has issues" box), but it also tells you how to install real Docker. Docker has name brand recognition, and even if it wasn't in Debian's official repos, it would be installed from Docker's own repos. This wiki isn't popular enough for this to matter anyway, people are likely googling for "docker debian" and are finding instructions for real Docker. I don't feel like Docker is dying. And besides, that issue with root feels overblown in the era of single-user systems and servers as cattle.
  - k8svet 3y ago
    > that issue with root feels overblown in the era of single-user systems and servers as cattle. Uh. No.
- noirscape 3y ago
  No? Sorry if that's a bit cynical, but Docker is only dying in the opinion of distro maintainers. By this metric, it's been dying for the past 8 years, but everyone is still talking about Docker, not podman. A related problem I've seen from other complaints made elsewhere is that podman does things just slightly different enough than Docker that it's not a true drop-in replacement. We've seen that before; where distro maintainers declared software too dangerous/prematurely dead for a while. All it resulted in was community hosted repositories for the old software. (Read: this is why avconv failed.)
  - bogwog 3y ago
    Yeah I don't think Docker is the type of tool the typical engineer cares enough about to go out of their way to learn something new, no matter how much better or simpler it may be. I guess it's like git; even though most devs only have a surface level knowledge, dethroning it would require convincing people to learn a new system, and that's not gonna happen no matter how good it is. Red Hat at least had the muscle to force podman onto some people, but not everyone.
    - packetlost 3y ago
      idk, I actively dropped docker as soon as I reasonably could. podman is an objectively better tool by nearly every metric and it has an almost exact 1:1 CLI tool, so there's not really a learning curve besides a few configuration differences
  - Timber-6539 3y ago
    Sometimes I get the feeling all the folks touting podman as a drop-in replacement for docker are doing it in bad faith. Every few years I try to replace my containers managed through docker-compose and it's always a sure miss. Before podman gained official support for the docker-compose spec, there was an unofficial podman-compose project that sort of worked save for a few podman incompatibility bugs here and there. So I was delighted to try out the "official" docker-compose for podman. Quickly learned that there's no such package, the official podman-compose is just the same docker compose package, you just use it with podman the same way you would with docker. Despite this glaring inconsistency I decided to give podman a try (if you are going to install docker compose on your system might as well just use docker). Noped out when I tried to create a VPN with a podman container and it was failing requiring me to enable a kernel module (TAP or TUN can't remember exact error) to create a vpn. Anyone who says podman is a drop-in replacement for docker never used docker much for anything more than running hello-world. I would only recommend podman over docker for someone who's new to containers and has never heard of docker before.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
docker-cli is still open source (Apache 2.0) and being distributed in most flavors of Linux. Docker the company does not own all the source code. But like redis they are free to build their own non open source products around this code base.

dralley 3y ago

A bit reductionist. IIRC the main reason Docker was phased out because Red Hat wanted to push rootless, daemonless containers, which required CGroups v2, which Docker didn't want to support for the longest time. Since both versions of CGroups can't be enabled simultaneously, and no distro wanted to go without Docker (or at least Docker-like) functionality, CGroups v2 was left in permanent stasis, and so Red Hat started Podman to break the deadlock. There were a laundry list of other technical disagreements (mostly around security) but that was the primary one. And then once Red Hat distros switched over to CGroups v2, which Podman enabled them to do, it meant that Docker wouldn't really work all that well anymore until they eventually switched to CGroups v2 also (which they eventually did a few years later). So that's why it got removed from the repos, at least originally.

tick_tock_tick 3y ago

It's not in Debian and their wiki straight up directs you to podman with a nice big scary warning about dockers root issue. https://wiki.debian.org/Docker https://wiki.debian.org/Docker Docker is dyeing on linux podman will be the only one that remains.

aragilar 3y ago
It's in Debian: https://packages.debian.org/sid/docker.io https://packages.debian.org/sid/docker.io
- tick_tock_tick 3y ago
  huh well I'll be damn I thought this had already been resolved back to the mailing list it seems.
- francislavoie 3y ago
  That version is so old. I just use Docker's own apt repo to not fall behind.
Kwpolska 3y ago
The page suggests podman in a small info box (one that people might skip, because it feels like the Wikipedian "this article has issues" box), but it also tells you how to install real Docker. Docker has name brand recognition, and even if it wasn't in Debian's official repos, it would be installed from Docker's own repos. This wiki isn't popular enough for this to matter anyway, people are likely googling for "docker debian" and are finding instructions for real Docker. I don't feel like Docker is dying. And besides, that issue with root feels overblown in the era of single-user systems and servers as cattle.
- k8svet 3y ago
  > that issue with root feels overblown in the era of single-user systems and servers as cattle. Uh. No.
noirscape 3y ago
No? Sorry if that's a bit cynical, but Docker is only dying in the opinion of distro maintainers. By this metric, it's been dying for the past 8 years, but everyone is still talking about Docker, not podman. A related problem I've seen from other complaints made elsewhere is that podman does things just slightly different enough than Docker that it's not a true drop-in replacement. We've seen that before; where distro maintainers declared software too dangerous/prematurely dead for a while. All it resulted in was community hosted repositories for the old software. (Read: this is why avconv failed.)
- bogwog 3y ago
  Yeah I don't think Docker is the type of tool the typical engineer cares enough about to go out of their way to learn something new, no matter how much better or simpler it may be. I guess it's like git; even though most devs only have a surface level knowledge, dethroning it would require convincing people to learn a new system, and that's not gonna happen no matter how good it is. Red Hat at least had the muscle to force podman onto some people, but not everyone.
  - packetlost 3y ago
    idk, I actively dropped docker as soon as I reasonably could. podman is an objectively better tool by nearly every metric and it has an almost exact 1:1 CLI tool, so there's not really a learning curve besides a few configuration differences
- Timber-6539 3y ago
  Sometimes I get the feeling all the folks touting podman as a drop-in replacement for docker are doing it in bad faith. Every few years I try to replace my containers managed through docker-compose and it's always a sure miss. Before podman gained official support for the docker-compose spec, there was an unofficial podman-compose project that sort of worked save for a few podman incompatibility bugs here and there. So I was delighted to try out the "official" docker-compose for podman. Quickly learned that there's no such package, the official podman-compose is just the same docker compose package, you just use it with podman the same way you would with docker. Despite this glaring inconsistency I decided to give podman a try (if you are going to install docker compose on your system might as well just use docker). Noped out when I tried to create a VPN with a podman container and it was failing requiring me to enable a kernel module (TAP or TUN can't remember exact error) to create a vpn. Anyone who says podman is a drop-in replacement for docker never used docker much for anything more than running hello-world. I would only recommend podman over docker for someone who's new to containers and has never heard of docker before.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

docker-cli is still open source (Apache 2.0) and being distributed in most flavors of Linux. Docker the company does not own all the source code. But like redis they are free to build their own non open source products around this code base.