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Also, very good user-annotated documentation (I don't know if this is still so, but it was when I started PHP) and a lot of existing code/libraries/applications

by nir 18y ago

Also, very good user-annotated documentation (I don't know if this is still so, but it was when I started PHP) and a lot of existing code/libraries/applications (of varying quality) that you can use. The value of PHP is not in the language itself, but in the fact it is easy to pick up and easy to deploy. This often causes people with strong coding background to dismiss PHP, but empirically it seems most people care a lot more about easy deployment than, say, closures or namespaces (or even consistent function naming).

trezor 18y ago
and a lot of existing code/libraries/applications (of varying quality) that you can use My question was what qualities PHP has on its own, as a language, which would merit keeping it around if the language were to be cleaned up and break compatibility with that existing code. easy to deploy I also wouldn't say ease of deployment in PHP is in any way unique or easier than deploying for instance perl or python. Heck, even super enterprisey Asp.net can do with the same simple deployment procedure as PHP has.
- nir 18y ago
  That's the thing - the choice isn't between languages, but between tools. For example, having a lot of libraries is not strictly a language feature, but it does effect choosing one over the other. On its own, as a language, PHP doesn't have much going for it. You can clean up PHP and break compatibility, but then you've lost much of its value (and what you'd get wouldn't be better than Ruby or Python anyway). I'd bet most PHP users don't even know PHP, they just install Wordpress or Drupal to run their site and maybe modified some templates etc. As for deployment, it's easier because it's already there. Almost all hosting companies support it. Most (I think) Apache installs have it on (or easily activated) by default. This is the reason other languages don't have anything comparable (in popularity, not in features) to the above CMS.
  - trezor 18y ago
    That's the thing - the choice isn't between languages, but between tools. For example, having a lot of libraries is not strictly a language feature, but it does effect choosing one over the other. I'm not going to be stupid enough to deny this, but my argument was that PHP as a language doesn't offer anything unique, so if they were to actually clean it up and break all compatibility there would no incentive to move to this "new" cleansed PHP platform as opposed to existing, better languages and platforms. You are pretty much in agreement with my original statement.

by nir 18y ago

trezor 18y ago

and a lot of existing code/libraries/applications (of varying quality) that you can use My question was what qualities PHP has on its own, as a language, which would merit keeping it around if the language were to be cleaned up and break compatibility with that existing code. easy to deploy I also wouldn't say ease of deployment in PHP is in any way unique or easier than deploying for instance perl or python. Heck, even super enterprisey Asp.net can do with the same simple deployment procedure as PHP has.

nir 18y ago
That's the thing - the choice isn't between languages, but between tools. For example, having a lot of libraries is not strictly a language feature, but it does effect choosing one over the other. On its own, as a language, PHP doesn't have much going for it. You can clean up PHP and break compatibility, but then you've lost much of its value (and what you'd get wouldn't be better than Ruby or Python anyway). I'd bet most PHP users don't even know PHP, they just install Wordpress or Drupal to run their site and maybe modified some templates etc. As for deployment, it's easier because it's already there. Almost all hosting companies support it. Most (I think) Apache installs have it on (or easily activated) by default. This is the reason other languages don't have anything comparable (in popularity, not in features) to the above CMS.
- trezor 18y ago
  That's the thing - the choice isn't between languages, but between tools. For example, having a lot of libraries is not strictly a language feature, but it does effect choosing one over the other. I'm not going to be stupid enough to deny this, but my argument was that PHP as a language doesn't offer anything unique, so if they were to actually clean it up and break all compatibility there would no incentive to move to this "new" cleansed PHP platform as opposed to existing, better languages and platforms. You are pretty much in agreement with my original statement.