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What happens when Matter gets acquired? I'm sorry, but all this self back-patting is a bit too little too late for this jaded guy, especially because a thousand

What happens when Matter gets acquired? I'm sorry, but all this self back-patting is a bit too little too late for this jaded guy, especially because a thousand other companies have made the same promises in cheery blog posts, before something happens and my social security number winds up on a sticky note on some hacker's monitor in Belarus. Hell, I've worked for companies where I was forced to break users' trust because some executive critter told me to when it was clear the profit faucet wasn't opened nearly enough. So thanks, but this isn't enough anymore. We need laws that will guarantee that every company that handles our data will do it thoughtfully and safely. In the meantime, I'm not expecting much.

scoates 3y ago
Hello. Agreed that we need comprehensive privacy reform. You should probably read the article, though. (-; I have access to everything (on the tech side) at Matter, and if you put your social security number into the app, I wouldn't be able to access it to write it on a sticky note. That's the whole point. PS I'm also old and jaded. (-;
- travisjungroth 3y ago
  I don’t think the article really answers this. All these decisions you’ve made to not store data are decisions that you could unmake. To put it concretely: if everyone at Matter tomorrow became malevolent and wanted user data, what happens? For example, if you push an app that sends home my private text, how would I know? Could you?
  - defen 3y ago
    Isn't this an argument against putting any personal information into any app? Signal could turn malevolent tomorrow and start sending all your chats to their servers, which could have life-threatening implications for people vs just potentially being embarrassing.
    - travisjungroth 3y ago
      I put data into Google Docs knowing it lives on their servers. So there’s no problem there. Signal has an open source client. Big difference for these claims.
      - defen 3y ago
        Do you compile your own open source client for your phone? Or do you install it from an app store? Most people are going to install it from the app store, so I believe my point still stands. What correlation is there between what's in the app store vs what is published in the open source repo? e.g. how do you validate that the app store client was compiled from a specific commit in the open source repo?
        travisjungroth 3y ago
        The Signal Android app has (had?) reproducible builds. You can see what is on the site and in the App Store is the same as when built from source. One person doing this provides some confidence for everyone else. Still, I’m less confident in saying any other company fulfill’s Matter’s promise than saying they aren’t.
tschwimmer 3y ago
Hey, no need to cast aspersions on the infosec practices of Belorussian hackers, I bet they store their stolen credentials in an encrypted SQLite database as per industry best practice.
defen 3y ago
> What happens when Matter gets acquired That's a major point that's addressed in the blog post, did you read it?
- abound 3y ago
  Not sure about GP, but I did read the post. If they get acquired, I don't see anything stopping the acquirer from pushing an update that decrypts stuff and sends the plaintext to the servers.
  - ndr 3y ago
    This. And how likely is it that if their users value their app's data then there's an acquirer willing to wipe out all the users' data from the phones before they take over?
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    I'm rather baffled at this level of nitpicking. Yes, if the software was being written by completely different people with completely different goals they might then start to acquire user data but what does that have to do with the point (that data this team and this management don't have cannot be leaked)?
    - stvltvs 3y ago
      I don't track management changes for the apps I use because who has the time? How can we protect ourselves against a malicious company changing their tech behind the scenes?
      - abound 3y ago
        My personal solution is just to self-host anything important or sensitive (password manager, file storage, photo storage, etc). Audit the code as desired, pin to specific versions, run on a private network.
    - travisjungroth 3y ago
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
While I agree with your sentiment, after re-reading the post and looking at some of the blog posts, I think you missed a major point, that being: 1. You can't leak what you don't have. That is, even if the company gets bought out or is hacked, if they don't have the data, there is nothing to leak. This point is also at least partially enforced by another point from the post: 2. Advanced app users can audit their network traffic from the app Now, granted, I wouldn't expect many users to do this, but highlighting it at least serves as a warning that it should be harder for the app to surreptitiously change what is sent to the server (and to emphasize, I know this can be worked/hacked around, but I don't think working around this could ever be done with plausible deniability). Given the fact that companies and products jettison their high-minded policies as soon as it becomes economically inconvenient, the only other thing I'd recommend for the author is to have a good, simple export tool, e.g. something that dumps all the "memories" to a directory or PDF file. The post talks about backup and restore, but if I were a potential user I'd like to know that if the company does kick their privacy policy to the curb at some point that I could get all of the investment and data out of the app without needing to continue to rely on the app for at least the base data I put into it.
- nicksloan 3y ago
  Hi, I also work at Matter. Our current backup/restore implementation exports a zip file of complete JSON data. We will improve backups in the future, but no pull request will be merged to remove the existing implementation for at least as long as I’m leading the app team.
jacurtis 3y ago
> before something happens and my social security number winds up on a sticky note on some hacker's monitor in Belarus Isn't the point of the article that they can't leak something they don't have? So if I never get your social security number from you, then I have zero risk of leaking it or exposing it to hackers. I can't give them (intentionally or unintentionally) something that I don't possess. The author says: > Given these criteria and extremes, we decided that our best course of action is to just never have our users' private data. --- To your next question on what happens if Matter is acquired. Well the app might stop working or change how it works or have new logo in the corner, but your data never left your device, so you don't really have to worry about it being leaked to Belarus.
- ndr 3y ago
  > Well the app might [...] change how it works [...] but your data never left your device, so you don't really have to worry about it being leaked to Belarus. You're one update away from having an app that has access to all its data and can ship it anywhere. Do you keep updates off?
  - AlienRobot 3y ago
    I wish I could keep my updates off. Every time I turn on my computer dnfdragora is like "there are 35 new updates!" Oh yeah? But my computer is working. Those updates could fix problems that I don't have but could break stuff I have as well. I'm not updating until they release Fedora 40. (my nvidia driver stopped working when I upgraded to 39, again...) To begin with who thought these notifications were a good idea? Just appear meekly on the system tray when you have something to say. The only time a popup is acceptable is if it says "yo, your computer is on fire." Anything less is unnecessary distraction. I want my software as-is, changing only when I want it to change. The other day a Windows update removed my "show desktop" button from the task bar to insert a copilot button. Who asked for this? The taskbar changes when I say it changes! I started using the program because I liked the way it was. If it wasn't the way it was I wouldn't have started using it, so why change? To make matters worse, I don't think there has ever been a time a software updated that I said "they finally added X!" It just never happens. It's insane. Things really only get worse with time. Ten years ago GIMP didn't have nondestructive editing. It still doesn't. I'm still waiting for it. They said it will come in GIMP 3, for years. I feel like that update is just never coming. We're at GIMP 2.99.18 now. Can you believe it? 2.99.18. Who even reaches minor version .99?!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bamnet 3y ago
This isn't just a theoretical point. Chrome extensions are the canonical example of products which start off with the best intentions, get acquired, and then ...

scoates 3y ago

Hello. Agreed that we need comprehensive privacy reform. You should probably read the article, though. (-; I have access to everything (on the tech side) at Matter, and if you put your social security number into the app, I wouldn't be able to access it to write it on a sticky note. That's the whole point. PS I'm also old and jaded. (-;

travisjungroth 3y ago
I don’t think the article really answers this. All these decisions you’ve made to not store data are decisions that you could unmake. To put it concretely: if everyone at Matter tomorrow became malevolent and wanted user data, what happens? For example, if you push an app that sends home my private text, how would I know? Could you?
- defen 3y ago
  Isn't this an argument against putting any personal information into any app? Signal could turn malevolent tomorrow and start sending all your chats to their servers, which could have life-threatening implications for people vs just potentially being embarrassing.
  - travisjungroth 3y ago
    I put data into Google Docs knowing it lives on their servers. So there’s no problem there. Signal has an open source client. Big difference for these claims.
    - defen 3y ago
      Do you compile your own open source client for your phone? Or do you install it from an app store? Most people are going to install it from the app store, so I believe my point still stands. What correlation is there between what's in the app store vs what is published in the open source repo? e.g. how do you validate that the app store client was compiled from a specific commit in the open source repo?
      - travisjungroth 3y ago
        The Signal Android app has (had?) reproducible builds. You can see what is on the site and in the App Store is the same as when built from source. One person doing this provides some confidence for everyone else. Still, I’m less confident in saying any other company fulfill’s Matter’s promise than saying they aren’t.

tschwimmer 3y ago

Hey, no need to cast aspersions on the infosec practices of Belorussian hackers, I bet they store their stolen credentials in an encrypted SQLite database as per industry best practice.

defen 3y ago

> What happens when Matter gets acquired That's a major point that's addressed in the blog post, did you read it?

abound 3y ago
Not sure about GP, but I did read the post. If they get acquired, I don't see anything stopping the acquirer from pushing an update that decrypts stuff and sends the plaintext to the servers.
- ndr 3y ago
  This. And how likely is it that if their users value their app's data then there's an acquirer willing to wipe out all the users' data from the phones before they take over?
- filleduchaos 3y ago
  I'm rather baffled at this level of nitpicking. Yes, if the software was being written by completely different people with completely different goals they might then start to acquire user data but what does that have to do with the point (that data this team and this management don't have cannot be leaked)?
  - stvltvs 3y ago
    I don't track management changes for the apps I use because who has the time? How can we protect ourselves against a malicious company changing their tech behind the scenes?
    - abound 3y ago
      My personal solution is just to self-host anything important or sensitive (password manager, file storage, photo storage, etc). Audit the code as desired, pin to specific versions, run on a private network.
  - travisjungroth 3y ago

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

While I agree with your sentiment, after re-reading the post and looking at some of the blog posts, I think you missed a major point, that being: 1. You can't leak what you don't have. That is, even if the company gets bought out or is hacked, if they don't have the data, there is nothing to leak. This point is also at least partially enforced by another point from the post: 2. Advanced app users can audit their network traffic from the app Now, granted, I wouldn't expect many users to do this, but highlighting it at least serves as a warning that it should be harder for the app to surreptitiously change what is sent to the server (and to emphasize, I know this can be worked/hacked around, but I don't think working around this could ever be done with plausible deniability). Given the fact that companies and products jettison their high-minded policies as soon as it becomes economically inconvenient, the only other thing I'd recommend for the author is to have a good, simple export tool, e.g. something that dumps all the "memories" to a directory or PDF file. The post talks about backup and restore, but if I were a potential user I'd like to know that if the company does kick their privacy policy to the curb at some point that I could get all of the investment and data out of the app without needing to continue to rely on the app for at least the base data I put into it.

nicksloan 3y ago
Hi, I also work at Matter. Our current backup/restore implementation exports a zip file of complete JSON data. We will improve backups in the future, but no pull request will be merged to remove the existing implementation for at least as long as I’m leading the app team.

jacurtis 3y ago

> before something happens and my social security number winds up on a sticky note on some hacker's monitor in Belarus Isn't the point of the article that they can't leak something they don't have? So if I never get your social security number from you, then I have zero risk of leaking it or exposing it to hackers. I can't give them (intentionally or unintentionally) something that I don't possess. The author says: > Given these criteria and extremes, we decided that our best course of action is to just never have our users' private data. --- To your next question on what happens if Matter is acquired. Well the app might stop working or change how it works or have new logo in the corner, but your data never left your device, so you don't really have to worry about it being leaked to Belarus.

ndr 3y ago
> Well the app might [...] change how it works [...] but your data never left your device, so you don't really have to worry about it being leaked to Belarus. You're one update away from having an app that has access to all its data and can ship it anywhere. Do you keep updates off?
- AlienRobot 3y ago
  I wish I could keep my updates off. Every time I turn on my computer dnfdragora is like "there are 35 new updates!" Oh yeah? But my computer is working. Those updates could fix problems that I don't have but could break stuff I have as well. I'm not updating until they release Fedora 40. (my nvidia driver stopped working when I upgraded to 39, again...) To begin with who thought these notifications were a good idea? Just appear meekly on the system tray when you have something to say. The only time a popup is acceptable is if it says "yo, your computer is on fire." Anything less is unnecessary distraction. I want my software as-is, changing only when I want it to change. The other day a Windows update removed my "show desktop" button from the task bar to insert a copilot button. Who asked for this? The taskbar changes when I say it changes! I started using the program because I liked the way it was. If it wasn't the way it was I wouldn't have started using it, so why change? To make matters worse, I don't think there has ever been a time a software updated that I said "they finally added X!" It just never happens. It's insane. Things really only get worse with time. Ten years ago GIMP didn't have nondestructive editing. It still doesn't. I'm still waiting for it. They said it will come in GIMP 3, for years. I feel like that update is just never coming. We're at GIMP 2.99.18 now. Can you believe it? 2.99.18. Who even reaches minor version .99?!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bamnet 3y ago

This isn't just a theoretical point. Chrome extensions are the canonical example of products which start off with the best intentions, get acquired, and then ...