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> business folks are primarily the ones deciding what's funded A large part of the money that was funned into research at Xerox came from the government itself

> business folks are primarily the ones deciding what's funded A large part of the money that was funned into research at Xerox came from the government itself in the form of tax breaks and other benefits. So it was not a big sacrifice for Xerox to maintain that lab. If they had to change course was due to government policy becoming less interested in industrial innovation and more focused on offshoring and financial gains for the last decades.

AlbertCory 3y ago
> A large part of the money that was funned [sic] into research at Xerox came from the government itself Do you have any support for that? For example, Xerox's financial disclosure forms should still be available. Because I think it's wrong. The government funded academic projects, not commercial ones.
- coliveira 3y ago
  You don't need to look so far away: tax breaks for R&D are still a thing, in the 70s and 80s they were even more important for these giant companies. Government contracts were also a big income source for Xerox, AT&T, IBM, and others. Moreover, research labs were basically a method for companies to move discoveries from publicly funded Universities into private hands. They naturally benefited from receiving graduates and discoveries that started on publicly funded research institutions.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    In other words: no, you don't have any support.
    - coliveira 3y ago
      I have no obligation of doing research for you.
      - AlbertCory 3y ago
        You're the one making the extravagant claims, not me. like >Government contracts were also a big income source for Xerox, AT&T, IBM, and others. Don't get offended if you get challenged on that. I don't think you actually know anything specific here.
        coliveira 3y ago
        You're making a fool of yourself. There is nothing extravagant about saying government gives money for industrial labs. Here are a few that you are lazy enough not to see: High Taxes Brought Us Xerox PARC and Bell Labs [1] PARC, a Xerox company, today announced it has secured funding from the US Department of Energy’s Advanced Research Projects Agency [2] NTIA grants Verizon, AT&T-led open RAN group $42M [3] Nvidia, Microsoft, Google, and others partner with US government on AI research [4] Governor Hochul announced a $10 billion partnership with the semiconductor industry such as IBM [5] [1] https://slate.com/business/2012/07/xerox-parc-and-bell-labs-brought-to-you-by-high-taxes.html https://slate.com/business/2012/07/xerox-parc-and-bell-labs-... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20231211024425/https://www.parc.com/web/20231211024425/https://www.parc.com/press-releases/parc-secures-arpa-e-funding-to-build-energy-saving-travel-preferences-attractive-to-individual-travelers/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231211024425/https://www.parc.... [3] https://www.mobileworldlive.com/old_latest-stories/ntia-grants-verizon-att-led-open-ran-group-42m/ https://www.mobileworldlive.com/old_latest-stories/ntia-gran... [4] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nvidia-microsoft-google-and-others-partner-with-us-government-on-ai-research-program-160111850.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nvidia-microsoft-google-and-o... [5] https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-10-billion-partnership-bring-next-generation-research-and https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-1...
        teleforce 3y ago
        You can say that again [1]: [1] Biden to inject Intel with CHIPS fab cash 'next week': https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/15/biden_intel_chips_funds/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/15/biden_intel_chips_fun...
actionfromafar 3y ago
Bingo
ghufran_syed 3y ago
"The Idea Factory" is a great book about Bell Labs, it doesn't talk about tax breaks or subsidies as much as the need to provide some kind of public benefit to stave off the anti-trust regulator. Which is why they basically gave away the the transistor and the semi-conductor. The Bell system also had a LOT of money, kind of like the Google of their day, so they could fund "moonshots" "Dealers of Lightning" is about Xerox Parc and is also a great read if you're interested in the subject. I don't think the level of tax breaks has really changed between then and now for R&D, though maybe reducing the headline tax rate reduced the benefit of them? But I think the main issue is that the money wormhole stopped working - Industrial research labs seem to be a kind of luxury good
shrubble 3y ago
You might find this blog post of interest: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-american-rd-lab/ https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-am...

AlbertCory 3y ago

> A large part of the money that was funned [sic] into research at Xerox came from the government itself Do you have any support for that? For example, Xerox's financial disclosure forms should still be available. Because I think it's wrong. The government funded academic projects, not commercial ones.

coliveira 3y ago
You don't need to look so far away: tax breaks for R&D are still a thing, in the 70s and 80s they were even more important for these giant companies. Government contracts were also a big income source for Xerox, AT&T, IBM, and others. Moreover, research labs were basically a method for companies to move discoveries from publicly funded Universities into private hands. They naturally benefited from receiving graduates and discoveries that started on publicly funded research institutions.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  In other words: no, you don't have any support.
  - coliveira 3y ago
    I have no obligation of doing research for you.
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      You're the one making the extravagant claims, not me. like >Government contracts were also a big income source for Xerox, AT&T, IBM, and others. Don't get offended if you get challenged on that. I don't think you actually know anything specific here.
      - coliveira 3y ago
        You're making a fool of yourself. There is nothing extravagant about saying government gives money for industrial labs. Here are a few that you are lazy enough not to see: High Taxes Brought Us Xerox PARC and Bell Labs [1] PARC, a Xerox company, today announced it has secured funding from the US Department of Energy’s Advanced Research Projects Agency [2] NTIA grants Verizon, AT&T-led open RAN group $42M [3] Nvidia, Microsoft, Google, and others partner with US government on AI research [4] Governor Hochul announced a $10 billion partnership with the semiconductor industry such as IBM [5] [1] https://slate.com/business/2012/07/xerox-parc-and-bell-labs-brought-to-you-by-high-taxes.html https://slate.com/business/2012/07/xerox-parc-and-bell-labs-... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20231211024425/https://www.parc.com/web/20231211024425/https://www.parc.com/press-releases/parc-secures-arpa-e-funding-to-build-energy-saving-travel-preferences-attractive-to-individual-travelers/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231211024425/https://www.parc.... [3] https://www.mobileworldlive.com/old_latest-stories/ntia-grants-verizon-att-led-open-ran-group-42m/ https://www.mobileworldlive.com/old_latest-stories/ntia-gran... [4] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nvidia-microsoft-google-and-others-partner-with-us-government-on-ai-research-program-160111850.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nvidia-microsoft-google-and-o... [5] https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-10-billion-partnership-bring-next-generation-research-and https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-1...
        teleforce 3y ago
        You can say that again [1]: [1] Biden to inject Intel with CHIPS fab cash 'next week': https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/15/biden_intel_chips_funds/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/15/biden_intel_chips_fun...

actionfromafar 3y ago

Bingo

ghufran_syed 3y ago

"The Idea Factory" is a great book about Bell Labs, it doesn't talk about tax breaks or subsidies as much as the need to provide some kind of public benefit to stave off the anti-trust regulator. Which is why they basically gave away the the transistor and the semi-conductor. The Bell system also had a LOT of money, kind of like the Google of their day, so they could fund "moonshots" "Dealers of Lightning" is about Xerox Parc and is also a great read if you're interested in the subject. I don't think the level of tax breaks has really changed between then and now for R&D, though maybe reducing the headline tax rate reduced the benefit of them? But I think the main issue is that the money wormhole stopped working - Industrial research labs seem to be a kind of luxury good

shrubble 3y ago

You might find this blog post of interest: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-american-rd-lab/ https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-am...