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What value proposition does crypto offer that existing solutions do not? The only reasonable answer crypto advocates can ever offer is “decentralization” and t

What value proposition does crypto offer that existing solutions do not? The only reasonable answer crypto advocates can ever offer is “decentralization” and the lack of trust required. The problem is, most people are perfectly fine trusting their financial institutions. Another commenter was downvoted for saying “No one cares”, but a more precise way of putting this is “the average person doesn’t care about decentralization” and this is spot on. It’s cool tech, but it reminds me a bit of math research - towers of abstractions built over decades, with little effect on the real world. We can only hope that some benefits will be uncovered down the line. That’s what blockchain technology is: interesting research which will never be popular with or relevant to a lay person (outside of speculative bubbles)

pa7x1 3y ago
If you ascertain some value to the permissionless and self-custodial value of cash. And you see value in the internet's ability to connect the entire world. Then it follows immediately that you see value in cryptocurrency. Because you cannot use cash to transact globally, and you cannot use digital forms of central bank issued currency permissionlessly or have self-custody. Cryptocurrency gives you all those three properties. So you must give up something. HNers typically are willing to give up the permissionless and self-custody properties. After all, most of HN audience lives in developed democratic countries where personal freedoms are considered fundamental pillars and protected. But at a minimum you should consider that, not all the world lives under those circumstances. And that there are no guarantees that those circumstances will always be preserved in your cozy first world country. Certainly if you are willing to give them up so easily. Don't be so quick to assume it cannot happen where you live. One day they may go after some fringe truckers protesting in Canada. Another day they may go after some camgirls earning a living in ways that some executive board of a payment processor considers reprobable. Maybe one day they will tell you in what you can or cannot spend your money or where you can invest it and how much.
- troupo 3y ago
  > If you ascertain some value to the permissionless and self-custodial value of cash. And you see value in the internet's ability to connect the entire world. Then it follows immediately that you see value in cryptocurrency. Those two separate sentences do not immediately team up to somehow lead to the third sentence. > After all, most of HN audience lives in developed democratic countries where personal freedoms are considered fundamental pillars and protected. As do most crypto proponents who imagine the world outside the "enlightened West" as barbaric lawless lands governed by roaming bands Mad Max-style. Even though than we can take a popular online service that people pay for and see in which countries it's available. For example, Spotify says it's available in 238 countries and territories: https://support.spotify.com/us/article/where-spotify-is-available/ https://support.spotify.com/us/article/where-spotify-is-avai.... It does not accept any form of crypto currency as payment. This means that people in these countries have enough financial institutions and methods, and enough security to be able to pay for an international music streaming service [1]. > Maybe one day they will tell you in what you can or cannot spend your money or where you can invest it and how much. Or some day the Mad Max-style roaming gang will break down your door and steal all your cash. Or break all your fingers until you give them access to all your wallets. [1] The number of ways people pay in various countries is staggering. See e.g. what Adyen (the payment integrator that companies like Spotify, Uber, eBay etc. use) has integrated with: https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/ https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/ and https://docs.adyen.com/unified-commerce/pay-by-link/supported-payment-methods/ https://docs.adyen.com/unified-commerce/pay-by-link/supporte... and https://docs.adyen.com/point-of-sale/what-we-support/payment-methods/ https://docs.adyen.com/point-of-sale/what-we-support/payment... The complete willful ignorance and obliviousness that the absolute various majority of crypto proponents exhibit is no less staggering.
drak0n1c 3y ago
Decentralization of compute is perhaps a more compelling story. There have been many recent complaints of massive digital networks being at the whim of centralized IP and platform owners making unpopular decisions - whether in social media or games. Even non-profit and volunteer projects collapse when leaders abandon ship or become tyrants. What if open source code could also be extended to open decentralized hosting via micropayments - the direction of which all decided by users in a participatory format - whether via representative republic, direct democracy, or elected dictator? The obstacle is human nature and ease-of-use friction - taking responsibility for maintenance and innovation and imposing a participatory need requires a modicum of awareness and willingness to contribute - even if only with pennies. This is annoying and wasteful red tape for most, and so corporations with strong advertisers and investors who can provide it cheaper or for free are obviously seen as the better choice. Co-ops and communes have this problem.
valcron1000 3y ago
> The only reasonable answer crypto advocates can ever offer is “decentralization” and the lack of trust required. That a very big "only". For me that's the killer app. I do not trust financial institutions and the ones that I trust do not want to accept me as their customer. > “the average person doesn’t care about decentralization” It's like saying "the average person does not care about a system of interconnected computer networks that communicates through TCP/IP". The average person cares about watching reels on Instagram or sending messages through WhatsApp. > That’s what blockchain technology is: interesting research which will never be popular I have no doubt that someone said the same regarding the Internet.
lottin 3y ago
Exactly. I mean, you don't even have to trust financial institutions. You only have to trust the institutions that are in charge of maintaining law and order. Everything else follows from that. And if you can't trust those, then you have bigger problems that cannot be fixed with some damn cryptocurrency.
fsflover 3y ago
> The problem is, most people are perfectly fine trusting their financial institutions. Most people also don't need free speech, because they have nothing to say.
mattdesl 3y ago
Lots of that advanced math research finds its way into practical engineering (cryptography, digital media, compression, physics, AI, and so on). The average layperson does not care about mathematics, period. You may see a similar situation one day: some application might move to settle their economic value on Eth L2 rather than Stripe, eg for more control or lower fees. To the average layperson, they wouldn’t know/care about how the app works under the hood.

pa7x1 3y ago

If you ascertain some value to the permissionless and self-custodial value of cash. And you see value in the internet's ability to connect the entire world. Then it follows immediately that you see value in cryptocurrency. Because you cannot use cash to transact globally, and you cannot use digital forms of central bank issued currency permissionlessly or have self-custody. Cryptocurrency gives you all those three properties. So you must give up something. HNers typically are willing to give up the permissionless and self-custody properties. After all, most of HN audience lives in developed democratic countries where personal freedoms are considered fundamental pillars and protected. But at a minimum you should consider that, not all the world lives under those circumstances. And that there are no guarantees that those circumstances will always be preserved in your cozy first world country. Certainly if you are willing to give them up so easily. Don't be so quick to assume it cannot happen where you live. One day they may go after some fringe truckers protesting in Canada. Another day they may go after some camgirls earning a living in ways that some executive board of a payment processor considers reprobable. Maybe one day they will tell you in what you can or cannot spend your money or where you can invest it and how much.

troupo 3y ago
> If you ascertain some value to the permissionless and self-custodial value of cash. And you see value in the internet's ability to connect the entire world. Then it follows immediately that you see value in cryptocurrency. Those two separate sentences do not immediately team up to somehow lead to the third sentence. > After all, most of HN audience lives in developed democratic countries where personal freedoms are considered fundamental pillars and protected. As do most crypto proponents who imagine the world outside the "enlightened West" as barbaric lawless lands governed by roaming bands Mad Max-style. Even though than we can take a popular online service that people pay for and see in which countries it's available. For example, Spotify says it's available in 238 countries and territories: https://support.spotify.com/us/article/where-spotify-is-available/ https://support.spotify.com/us/article/where-spotify-is-avai.... It does not accept any form of crypto currency as payment. This means that people in these countries have enough financial institutions and methods, and enough security to be able to pay for an international music streaming service [1]. > Maybe one day they will tell you in what you can or cannot spend your money or where you can invest it and how much. Or some day the Mad Max-style roaming gang will break down your door and steal all your cash. Or break all your fingers until you give them access to all your wallets. [1] The number of ways people pay in various countries is staggering. See e.g. what Adyen (the payment integrator that companies like Spotify, Uber, eBay etc. use) has integrated with: https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/ https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/ and https://docs.adyen.com/unified-commerce/pay-by-link/supported-payment-methods/ https://docs.adyen.com/unified-commerce/pay-by-link/supporte... and https://docs.adyen.com/point-of-sale/what-we-support/payment-methods/ https://docs.adyen.com/point-of-sale/what-we-support/payment... The complete willful ignorance and obliviousness that the absolute various majority of crypto proponents exhibit is no less staggering.

drak0n1c 3y ago

Decentralization of compute is perhaps a more compelling story. There have been many recent complaints of massive digital networks being at the whim of centralized IP and platform owners making unpopular decisions - whether in social media or games. Even non-profit and volunteer projects collapse when leaders abandon ship or become tyrants. What if open source code could also be extended to open decentralized hosting via micropayments - the direction of which all decided by users in a participatory format - whether via representative republic, direct democracy, or elected dictator? The obstacle is human nature and ease-of-use friction - taking responsibility for maintenance and innovation and imposing a participatory need requires a modicum of awareness and willingness to contribute - even if only with pennies. This is annoying and wasteful red tape for most, and so corporations with strong advertisers and investors who can provide it cheaper or for free are obviously seen as the better choice. Co-ops and communes have this problem.

valcron1000 3y ago

> The only reasonable answer crypto advocates can ever offer is “decentralization” and the lack of trust required. That a very big "only". For me that's the killer app. I do not trust financial institutions and the ones that I trust do not want to accept me as their customer. > “the average person doesn’t care about decentralization” It's like saying "the average person does not care about a system of interconnected computer networks that communicates through TCP/IP". The average person cares about watching reels on Instagram or sending messages through WhatsApp. > That’s what blockchain technology is: interesting research which will never be popular I have no doubt that someone said the same regarding the Internet.

lottin 3y ago

Exactly. I mean, you don't even have to trust financial institutions. You only have to trust the institutions that are in charge of maintaining law and order. Everything else follows from that. And if you can't trust those, then you have bigger problems that cannot be fixed with some damn cryptocurrency.

fsflover 3y ago

> The problem is, most people are perfectly fine trusting their financial institutions. Most people also don't need free speech, because they have nothing to say.

mattdesl 3y ago

Lots of that advanced math research finds its way into practical engineering (cryptography, digital media, compression, physics, AI, and so on). The average layperson does not care about mathematics, period. You may see a similar situation one day: some application might move to settle their economic value on Eth L2 rather than Stripe, eg for more control or lower fees. To the average layperson, they wouldn’t know/care about how the app works under the hood.