5 ms·

I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done.

by __loam 3y ago

freedomben 3y ago
> I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done. How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? Would you be giddy if he were being flogged, or hanged? As long as there has been recording, flogging and hangings were common punishments and usually defended as "justice has been done." Incarceration really isn't far from medieval punishments. I'm by no means suggesting that nothing should be done, and maybe 25 years in prison is a just sentence (that's debatable, but for moving forward let's assume it is), but it still leaves me with a sick feeling. I just can't relate whatsoever with feeling "giddy" over it.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  Many people see justice served as a win for society, a reason to be hopeful that the future will be better. One life out of billions is valuable only to that person and their immediately family, it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    > it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings. that's a pretty extreme strawman of my position. Don't you think there's some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment? And if you don't, then how would you feel about flogging or hanging as I mentioned above? Does it seem odd to you for someone to feel sick about a public hanging in the town square, even if the person is guilty of the crime?
    - adolph 3y ago
      > some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment That isn’t the range at hand. SBF got something between what prosecutor and defender asked and much lower than theoretical max. Max: 110y Procecutor: 40-50y Defender: 6.5y Actual: 25y
      - mlcrypto 3y ago
        Very lenient and it doesn't set a deterrent at all for people like SBF. Basically you can go off the charts on the sentencing guidelines and commit 3 counts of perjury in court and still have the same Expected Value as if you stopped the crime at a smaller scale
        kelnos 3y ago
        Not sure I agree. 25 years in prison is life-ruining. Even if he ultimately gets out in 10 (or whatever), his life will be forever changed for the worse because of this, even with rich parents who will get him back on his feet after he's out. I think the kind of person who would see this sentence and think "eh, no big deal if that happens to me" would probably still not be fazed if he got a significantly longer sentence.
- __loam 3y ago
  > How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? Said human is responsible for the financial ruin of thousands of people. It's entirely likely that some small portion of those people committed suicide. White collar criminals, especially those as pedigreed as SBF, are rarely held accountable for their actions. The maximum sentence was 110 years so he got off pretty lightly here and it's entirely possible he serves less than 25 years for good behavior. So yeah, I'm excited to see an at least somewhat positive outcome here. A criminal was held accountable for their actions.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Genuinely, thank you for your reply. I appreciate you sharing your perspective :-)
  - kbos87 3y ago
    I don't entirely disagree with your point, and I see the real harm done here. But if I were a juror on this case, I'd have a really hard time being a part of taking away a full third of another human beings' life for what he did. There's no doubt that he knowingly did something wrong, he hurt people, and he deserves some level of punishment. But when I really think about what he did relative to the potential for 25 years in prison, that strikes me as barbaric.
    - CogitoCogito 3y ago
      I think treating petty criminals so badly and going easy on white collar criminals is barbaric. A third of his life is nothing compared to the damage he caused. I find it incredible that you would feel sorry for him.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        > I think treating petty criminals so badly and going easy on white collar criminals is barbaric. Where do you see GP arguing that we should treat petty criminals as badly as we do?
- biftek 3y ago
  Our prison system is undeniable terrible but we also so rarely see white collar criminals get what they deserve. Most of these guys get a slap on the wrist and somehow fail upwards. And he's almost guaranteed to serve a smaller portion of that time for "good behavior".
  - fortran77 3y ago
    It's amazing how light a setence Theranos' Elizabeth Holmes got compared to this. She may have actually killed people.
- rendall 3y ago
  > Incarceration really isn't far from medieval punishments. Sincere question: in your ideal world, what would be done in this case? I, too, am dubious that 25 entire years serves justice. On the other hand, many victims' entire life savings wiped out, hard-working people impoverished. How do we deter or redeem, here? To answer my own question, in an ideal world, SBF would voluntarily work every day to pay everyone back.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    > Sincere question: in your ideal world, what would be done in this case? Great question, and very hard. I don't really have a concrete answer, but generally speaking in my ideal world justice would focus on restoration to the victims. I concede that we may need some aspect of "punishment" to serve as a deterrent, but I think that punishment should benefit the victims, not the state. For example, stole $10k from somebody? Pay them back $25k. There should be no victimless crimes IMHO, and if "society" is the "victim" we should approach that one very skeptically and there should be very clear causation. For example, a dad who takes a few hits on a cannabis joint before bed is not "harming society" even though that has been the justification for draconian drug laws for decades. I also fully concede that real life is going to be a lot messier and more nuanced than what I've captured, and that such a system would require a large mindshift from society in addition to just systemic reform. It may take a while to get there. Disclaimer: If I actually had any ability to influence this I would want to spend a lot more time stuyding it and examining current research/science, and it's quite possible my opinion would adjust based on evidence.
    - jamespo 3y ago
      I think part of the issue and what the judge didn't like is he doesn't seem to have any remorse.
      - kelnos 3y ago
        Sure, and that certainly means any rehabilitation would be harder, and we'd be right to be skeptical of the results of that rehabilitation (as in, is he just pretending to be rehabilitated).
- foobiekr 3y ago
  Because he is a scamming, unethical asshole who would did profound damage to society.
- selfmodruntime 3y ago
  > How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? The guy is a massive fraudster who not only cost thousands of people their savings, but - maybe even worse - he did significant damage to crypto finance reputation. He was an already wealthy entrepreneur who could’ve at any point chosen not to be a massive fraud. Actions have consequences. Good riddance.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    There's a difference between feeling satisfied that you believe justice has been done, and feeling "giddy". I think it's awful to have positive, happy feelings when bad things happen to other people, even when those people deserve it. I'm not saying I'm totally immune to feelings like that, but I try to work on my attitude. These sorts of feelings are a stain on one's soul (for lack of a better word, as I'm not religious).
- blendorgat 3y ago
  Justice is not opposed to empathy. Everyone should look at SBF and feel empathy, and think, "losing the prime years of my life as he will would be horribly painful. Maybe I shouldn't commit fraud and steal thousands of people livelihoods like he did?"
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- flextheruler 3y ago
  Last I checked he’s not going to Treblinka. If you’re feeling sick about this you obviously need to read the court case and look into what low security federal prison is like.
- jojo100 3y ago
  Don't spare too much of a thought for SBF. He won't go to the same prison you will.
- jug 3y ago
  Giddy is maybe the wrong word but I am happy about it. He has acted indifferent during the trial which makes it likely that he could become a repeat offender. This was a strong motivation behind his sentence. If the judge is right in that, and who am I to not believe so, then it is probably correct to remove him from society for 25 years. This is an extremely dangerous individual who may lead hundreds or thousands to financial ruin and is indifferent about it.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I'm not giddy or anything like that. Our prison system is terrible, and our legal system is often unjust. But I think I'm... satisfied? that a white-collar criminal is experiencing consequences for what he's done. Too often these sorts of people get away with a slap on the wrist at most, and go on to commit more grift.

I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done.

by __loam 3y ago

I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done.

> I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done. How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? Would you be giddy if he were being flogged, or hanged? As long as there has been recording, flogging and hangings were common punishments and usually defended as "justice has been done." Incarceration really isn't far from medieval punishments. I'm by no means suggesting that nothing should be done, and maybe 25 years in prison is a just sentence (that's debatable, but for moving forward let's assume it is), but it still leaves me with a sick feeling. I just can't relate whatsoever with feeling "giddy" over it.

rootusrootus 3y ago
Many people see justice served as a win for society, a reason to be hopeful that the future will be better. One life out of billions is valuable only to that person and their immediately family, it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings.
- freedomben 3y ago
  > it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings. that's a pretty extreme strawman of my position. Don't you think there's some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment? And if you don't, then how would you feel about flogging or hanging as I mentioned above? Does it seem odd to you for someone to feel sick about a public hanging in the town square, even if the person is guilty of the crime?
  - adolph 3y ago
    > some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment That isn’t the range at hand. SBF got something between what prosecutor and defender asked and much lower than theoretical max. Max: 110y Procecutor: 40-50y Defender: 6.5y Actual: 25y
    - mlcrypto 3y ago
      Very lenient and it doesn't set a deterrent at all for people like SBF. Basically you can go off the charts on the sentencing guidelines and commit 3 counts of perjury in court and still have the same Expected Value as if you stopped the crime at a smaller scale
      - kelnos 3y ago
        Not sure I agree. 25 years in prison is life-ruining. Even if he ultimately gets out in 10 (or whatever), his life will be forever changed for the worse because of this, even with rich parents who will get him back on his feet after he's out. I think the kind of person who would see this sentence and think "eh, no big deal if that happens to me" would probably still not be fazed if he got a significantly longer sentence.
__loam 3y ago
> How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? Said human is responsible for the financial ruin of thousands of people. It's entirely likely that some small portion of those people committed suicide. White collar criminals, especially those as pedigreed as SBF, are rarely held accountable for their actions. The maximum sentence was 110 years so he got off pretty lightly here and it's entirely possible he serves less than 25 years for good behavior. So yeah, I'm excited to see an at least somewhat positive outcome here. A criminal was held accountable for their actions.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Genuinely, thank you for your reply. I appreciate you sharing your perspective :-)
- kbos87 3y ago
  I don't entirely disagree with your point, and I see the real harm done here. But if I were a juror on this case, I'd have a really hard time being a part of taking away a full third of another human beings' life for what he did. There's no doubt that he knowingly did something wrong, he hurt people, and he deserves some level of punishment. But when I really think about what he did relative to the potential for 25 years in prison, that strikes me as barbaric.
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
    I think treating petty criminals so badly and going easy on white collar criminals is barbaric. A third of his life is nothing compared to the damage he caused. I find it incredible that you would feel sorry for him.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      > I think treating petty criminals so badly and going easy on white collar criminals is barbaric. Where do you see GP arguing that we should treat petty criminals as badly as we do?
biftek 3y ago
Our prison system is undeniable terrible but we also so rarely see white collar criminals get what they deserve. Most of these guys get a slap on the wrist and somehow fail upwards. And he's almost guaranteed to serve a smaller portion of that time for "good behavior".
- fortran77 3y ago
  It's amazing how light a setence Theranos' Elizabeth Holmes got compared to this. She may have actually killed people.
rendall 3y ago
> Incarceration really isn't far from medieval punishments. Sincere question: in your ideal world, what would be done in this case? I, too, am dubious that 25 entire years serves justice. On the other hand, many victims' entire life savings wiped out, hard-working people impoverished. How do we deter or redeem, here? To answer my own question, in an ideal world, SBF would voluntarily work every day to pay everyone back.
- freedomben 3y ago
  > Sincere question: in your ideal world, what would be done in this case? Great question, and very hard. I don't really have a concrete answer, but generally speaking in my ideal world justice would focus on restoration to the victims. I concede that we may need some aspect of "punishment" to serve as a deterrent, but I think that punishment should benefit the victims, not the state. For example, stole $10k from somebody? Pay them back $25k. There should be no victimless crimes IMHO, and if "society" is the "victim" we should approach that one very skeptically and there should be very clear causation. For example, a dad who takes a few hits on a cannabis joint before bed is not "harming society" even though that has been the justification for draconian drug laws for decades. I also fully concede that real life is going to be a lot messier and more nuanced than what I've captured, and that such a system would require a large mindshift from society in addition to just systemic reform. It may take a while to get there. Disclaimer: If I actually had any ability to influence this I would want to spend a lot more time stuyding it and examining current research/science, and it's quite possible my opinion would adjust based on evidence.
  - jamespo 3y ago
    I think part of the issue and what the judge didn't like is he doesn't seem to have any remorse.
    - kelnos 3y ago
      Sure, and that certainly means any rehabilitation would be harder, and we'd be right to be skeptical of the results of that rehabilitation (as in, is he just pretending to be rehabilitated).
foobiekr 3y ago
Because he is a scamming, unethical asshole who would did profound damage to society.
selfmodruntime 3y ago
> How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? The guy is a massive fraudster who not only cost thousands of people their savings, but - maybe even worse - he did significant damage to crypto finance reputation. He was an already wealthy entrepreneur who could’ve at any point chosen not to be a massive fraud. Actions have consequences. Good riddance.
- kelnos 3y ago
  There's a difference between feeling satisfied that you believe justice has been done, and feeling "giddy". I think it's awful to have positive, happy feelings when bad things happen to other people, even when those people deserve it. I'm not saying I'm totally immune to feelings like that, but I try to work on my attitude. These sorts of feelings are a stain on one's soul (for lack of a better word, as I'm not religious).
blendorgat 3y ago
Justice is not opposed to empathy. Everyone should look at SBF and feel empathy, and think, "losing the prime years of my life as he will would be horribly painful. Maybe I shouldn't commit fraud and steal thousands of people livelihoods like he did?"
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
flextheruler 3y ago
Last I checked he’s not going to Treblinka. If you’re feeling sick about this you obviously need to read the court case and look into what low security federal prison is like.
jojo100 3y ago
Don't spare too much of a thought for SBF. He won't go to the same prison you will.
jug 3y ago
Giddy is maybe the wrong word but I am happy about it. He has acted indifferent during the trial which makes it likely that he could become a repeat offender. This was a strong motivation behind his sentence. If the judge is right in that, and who am I to not believe so, then it is probably correct to remove him from society for 25 years. This is an extremely dangerous individual who may lead hundreds or thousands to financial ruin and is indifferent about it.
kelnos 3y ago
I'm not giddy or anything like that. Our prison system is terrible, and our legal system is often unjust. But I think I'm... satisfied? that a white-collar criminal is experiencing consequences for what he's done. Too often these sorts of people get away with a slap on the wrist at most, and go on to commit more grift.