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> Sam Bankman Fried stole billions of dollars [1], probably often around $1000 at a time from tens of thousands of people. If going with my logic, he should be

> Sam Bankman Fried stole billions of dollars [1], probably often around $1000 at a time from tens of thousands of people. If going with my logic, he should be getting a lot longer than 25 years, upwards of hundreds or thousands of years. Apparently that logic applied to Bernie Madoff. He got 150 years. How are these cases so similar and yet got radically different sentences?

tombert 3y ago
Even more, Madoff actually turned himself in. I doubt he was "remorseful", mostly just realizing how insolvent he was, but it demonstrates at least some accountability on his end.
chollida1 3y ago
> How are these cases so similar and yet got radically different sentences? Partially in that SBF's victims will get "100%" back, based on the USD value of their holdings at the time. Madoff victims, especially the wealthily got a large haircut on their holdings and clawbacks on money they had taken out as far as 5 years back from sentencing. Also Maddoff's fraud went on for 15+ years, SBF's was maybe a year to 18 months at the most? These two cases are so widely different that you can't really compare them except at a superficial level, ie they were both fraud, and that's about where the similarities end.
- liendolucas 3y ago
  > These two cases are so widely different that you can't really compare them except at a superficial level, ie they were both fraud, and that's about where the similarities end. I have to disagree on that. Mostly because the order of magnitude of both scams is the same (billions) and both destroyed how many lives? And sure, maybe FTX victims will get 100% back, but when? How long until you see that money back?
adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
a lot of the answer is that Madoff wasn't trying for 25 years. When you're 71, they're both a life sentence.
bambax 3y ago
Madoff's system was only a Ponzi; there were no investments; all new clients' money was used to finance returns and withdrawals of previous clients. SBF's system was to use clients' money to do illiquid investments. Was it fraud? YES, because he lied to his clients and said he didn't invest their money. And that's why he was tried and punished. But was it the same kind of fraud as Madoff? NO. In law, intent is everything. If you kill someone by accident, or in self-defense, or after planning their murder for years, the law will treat that very differently; yet in all cases the result is the same (the person is dead). Same with fraud. It's not the same if it's a pure fraud where there is no possibility that the victims will ever see their money back, or if it's a fraud where it's possible they will be made whole, even if that possibility only exists in the mind of the perpetrator, because the mind of the perpetrator is what the legal system is interested in.

tombert 3y ago

Even more, Madoff actually turned himself in. I doubt he was "remorseful", mostly just realizing how insolvent he was, but it demonstrates at least some accountability on his end.

chollida1 3y ago

> How are these cases so similar and yet got radically different sentences? Partially in that SBF's victims will get "100%" back, based on the USD value of their holdings at the time. Madoff victims, especially the wealthily got a large haircut on their holdings and clawbacks on money they had taken out as far as 5 years back from sentencing. Also Maddoff's fraud went on for 15+ years, SBF's was maybe a year to 18 months at the most? These two cases are so widely different that you can't really compare them except at a superficial level, ie they were both fraud, and that's about where the similarities end.

liendolucas 3y ago
> These two cases are so widely different that you can't really compare them except at a superficial level, ie they were both fraud, and that's about where the similarities end. I have to disagree on that. Mostly because the order of magnitude of both scams is the same (billions) and both destroyed how many lives? And sure, maybe FTX victims will get 100% back, but when? How long until you see that money back?

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago

a lot of the answer is that Madoff wasn't trying for 25 years. When you're 71, they're both a life sentence.

bambax 3y ago

Madoff's system was only a Ponzi; there were no investments; all new clients' money was used to finance returns and withdrawals of previous clients. SBF's system was to use clients' money to do illiquid investments. Was it fraud? YES, because he lied to his clients and said he didn't invest their money. And that's why he was tried and punished. But was it the same kind of fraud as Madoff? NO. In law, intent is everything. If you kill someone by accident, or in self-defense, or after planning their murder for years, the law will treat that very differently; yet in all cases the result is the same (the person is dead). Same with fraud. It's not the same if it's a pure fraud where there is no possibility that the victims will ever see their money back, or if it's a fraud where it's possible they will be made whole, even if that possibility only exists in the mind of the perpetrator, because the mind of the perpetrator is what the legal system is interested in.