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Creator here, so I'm biased... Yew has had about 10 commits in the past 6 months and the original creator has since moved on. Leptos is a good solution for we

Creator here, so I'm biased... Yew has had about 10 commits in the past 6 months and the original creator has since moved on. Leptos is a good solution for web-app type stuff, but IMO there's a big usability gap. I'll let the community be the judge there, but I wrote up some differences here: https://github.com/dioxusLabs/dioxus/?tab=readme-ov-file#dioxus-vs-leptos https://github.com/dioxusLabs/dioxus/?tab=readme-ov-file#dio... Leptos was fortunate enough to receive a lot of attention from youtubers on its launch. The most important thing here: we raised venture money for Dioxus. We have many years of runway, are pretty lean, and exclusively focused on pouring resources into making the best GUI library for Rust (and potentially branching out to Python/JS). Getting into YC isn't easy, raising money isn't easy, and there's currently no other Rust projects with similar goals, talent, and financial backing. Biased of course. Oh, and we're committed to the bevy integration. bevy_dioxus is already updated for 0.5 and we share corporate sponsors with the bevy folks. Final point, legally, no we're not inspired by any pokemon with a similar sounding name. Even though that pokemon is awesome.

dorian-graph 3y ago
> The most important thing here: we raised venture money for Dioxus. Important, but in a _bad_ way? What will the VC expect out of Dioxus? How will you make money?
- jkelleyrtp 3y ago
  Venture doesn't necessarily mean bad. Long term the goal the goal is to dissolve the gates to Apple and Google's walled gardens, which I personally believe is a net good. As much is the idealist in me wants to do that with no venture backing, the realist in me knows we need Dioxus to be self sustaining and providing legitimate value for people to switch. Google spends 76 million dollars a year on catering alone - there's no way you can compete with Android and Flutter without huge resources. Apple and Google capture the value for their platforms via fees and lock-in. Our goal is to capture value by providing really good utilities for building and deploying apps. You can't move heaven and earth without a really big lever, and venture gives us more leverage.
  - steveklabnik 3y ago
    If you don't mind me asking, what's the actual business model here? Are you going to charge for those utilities?
    - jkelleyrtp 3y ago
      Yes, we're looking at something like a Vercel/Expo model, probably built on Fly, Cloudflare, or AWS, but designed to be self hosted. We've got a decent amount of enterprise adoption and I think there's money to be made by selling something like a self-hosted Vercel. TBD on licensing - I'd want it to be open source but we wouldn't want people reselling our deploy platform. We raised a seed to prove that people want to build with dioxus. If that hypotheses is validated, then we invest in the deploy model. If not, we have OSS grants and corporate sponsors that will keep the project alive for years even if the VC money runs out. I'm not super interested in making money at the hobbyist tier - those developers are our evangelists. Enterprise self hosting is likely harder but I think we can provide a lot of value to teams building apps in large companies.
      - steveklabnik 3y ago
        Neat, thank you!
      - anp 3y ago
        As a former Expo employee and someone who took a run at this space (moxie) before running out of steam, it’s really exciting to hear this is the approach you’re taking! I’ll be keeping an eye out :).
      - margorczynski 3y ago
        Cool stuff man, wishing you and the team all the best as a person who quite often uses Flutter for side projects but isn't a big fan of Dart. Any ETA on it being stable/1.0?
        jkelleyrtp 3y ago
- azemetre 3y ago
  Yeah, it's becoming more common in my group of SWEs to specifically opt to NOT use VC backed software. Everyone has stories about companies closing shop and projects failing to continue onward. Why would Dioxus be any different? If VC's cared about tearing down walled gardens of Google and Apple, why not explicitly donate the money instead? Why have strings attached at all?
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > it's becoming more common in my group of SWEs to specifically opt to NOT use VC backed software so, what they use instead? Bugged, dead OSS dropped by creators?..
    - wpietri 3y ago
      "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    - azemetre 3y ago
      No, normal OSS whose existence isn't tied to VC mostly. It's not like a hard/fast rule, just a heuristic.
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        There are very few good quality, stable, active OSS projects which is not fed by VC/corps money. In this case (UI for rust) there is no much choice.
        fabrice_d 3y ago
        Funding by VC and funding by corps sponsors are 2 very different things. Check how linux desktop projects such as Gnome & KDE kept the lights on for >20 years without VC funding.
        riku_iki 3y ago
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > What will the VC expect out of Dioxus? there are several ways to monetize: - consultancy - "Pro" extensions on top of OSS core
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    Consultancy is unlikely to give VC a 100x return. Enterprise extensions means the cursed land of open core and refusing to have features in the open source version, or a heavy SaaS push combined with a possible license change along the road, and these are the primary reasons to avoid VC-backed "open source for now".
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > Enterprise extensions means the cursed land of open core and refusing to have features in the open source version yes, there are risks in exchange of VC money. You can branch your "Libre" project any time, and continue building on top of infra developed using VC funds and which you get for free. But what are other choices?
unshavedyak 3y ago
> Oh, and we're committed to the bevy integration. bevy_dioxus is already updated for 0.5 and we share corporate sponsors with the bevy folks. I checked out the crate and am still a bit confused. If i may, is it a goal of bevy_dioxus to allow standard bevy gamedev but with the UI portion handled by dioxus?
- jkelleyrtp 3y ago
  Yes, a big feature bevy is lacking is a decent editor. There's been an ongoing push to get dioxus into bevy to accelerate the editor development. Bevy's ECS model is good for games but hasn't been cleanly mapped into the traditional GUI space yet. Dioxus is composable so you can integrate it at multiple levels. The bevy folks are using our virtualdom plus state management with their own renderer.
caspar 3y ago
> Oh, and we're committed to the bevy integration. bevy_dioxus is already updated for 0.5 and we share corporate sponsors with the bevy folks. Silly question, but where can I see the updated bevy integration? It looks like https://crates.io/crates/bevy_dioxus/ https://crates.io/crates/bevy_dioxus/ is still using dioxus 0.2 and bevy 0.7 - both of which are quite old. Does your official bevy integration have some other name?

dorian-graph 3y ago

> The most important thing here: we raised venture money for Dioxus. Important, but in a _bad_ way? What will the VC expect out of Dioxus? How will you make money?

jkelleyrtp 3y ago
Venture doesn't necessarily mean bad. Long term the goal the goal is to dissolve the gates to Apple and Google's walled gardens, which I personally believe is a net good. As much is the idealist in me wants to do that with no venture backing, the realist in me knows we need Dioxus to be self sustaining and providing legitimate value for people to switch. Google spends 76 million dollars a year on catering alone - there's no way you can compete with Android and Flutter without huge resources. Apple and Google capture the value for their platforms via fees and lock-in. Our goal is to capture value by providing really good utilities for building and deploying apps. You can't move heaven and earth without a really big lever, and venture gives us more leverage.
- steveklabnik 3y ago
  If you don't mind me asking, what's the actual business model here? Are you going to charge for those utilities?
  - jkelleyrtp 3y ago
    Yes, we're looking at something like a Vercel/Expo model, probably built on Fly, Cloudflare, or AWS, but designed to be self hosted. We've got a decent amount of enterprise adoption and I think there's money to be made by selling something like a self-hosted Vercel. TBD on licensing - I'd want it to be open source but we wouldn't want people reselling our deploy platform. We raised a seed to prove that people want to build with dioxus. If that hypotheses is validated, then we invest in the deploy model. If not, we have OSS grants and corporate sponsors that will keep the project alive for years even if the VC money runs out. I'm not super interested in making money at the hobbyist tier - those developers are our evangelists. Enterprise self hosting is likely harder but I think we can provide a lot of value to teams building apps in large companies.
    - steveklabnik 3y ago
      Neat, thank you!
    - anp 3y ago
      As a former Expo employee and someone who took a run at this space (moxie) before running out of steam, it’s really exciting to hear this is the approach you’re taking! I’ll be keeping an eye out :).
    - margorczynski 3y ago
      Cool stuff man, wishing you and the team all the best as a person who quite often uses Flutter for side projects but isn't a big fan of Dart. Any ETA on it being stable/1.0?
      - jkelleyrtp 3y ago
azemetre 3y ago
Yeah, it's becoming more common in my group of SWEs to specifically opt to NOT use VC backed software. Everyone has stories about companies closing shop and projects failing to continue onward. Why would Dioxus be any different? If VC's cared about tearing down walled gardens of Google and Apple, why not explicitly donate the money instead? Why have strings attached at all?
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > it's becoming more common in my group of SWEs to specifically opt to NOT use VC backed software so, what they use instead? Bugged, dead OSS dropped by creators?..
  - wpietri 3y ago
    "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  - azemetre 3y ago
    No, normal OSS whose existence isn't tied to VC mostly. It's not like a hard/fast rule, just a heuristic.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      There are very few good quality, stable, active OSS projects which is not fed by VC/corps money. In this case (UI for rust) there is no much choice.
      - fabrice_d 3y ago
        Funding by VC and funding by corps sponsors are 2 very different things. Check how linux desktop projects such as Gnome & KDE kept the lights on for >20 years without VC funding.
        riku_iki 3y ago
riku_iki 3y ago
> What will the VC expect out of Dioxus? there are several ways to monetize: - consultancy - "Pro" extensions on top of OSS core
- yencabulator 3y ago
  Consultancy is unlikely to give VC a 100x return. Enterprise extensions means the cursed land of open core and refusing to have features in the open source version, or a heavy SaaS push combined with a possible license change along the road, and these are the primary reasons to avoid VC-backed "open source for now".
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > Enterprise extensions means the cursed land of open core and refusing to have features in the open source version yes, there are risks in exchange of VC money. You can branch your "Libre" project any time, and continue building on top of infra developed using VC funds and which you get for free. But what are other choices?

unshavedyak 3y ago

> Oh, and we're committed to the bevy integration. bevy_dioxus is already updated for 0.5 and we share corporate sponsors with the bevy folks. I checked out the crate and am still a bit confused. If i may, is it a goal of bevy_dioxus to allow standard bevy gamedev but with the UI portion handled by dioxus?

jkelleyrtp 3y ago
Yes, a big feature bevy is lacking is a decent editor. There's been an ongoing push to get dioxus into bevy to accelerate the editor development. Bevy's ECS model is good for games but hasn't been cleanly mapped into the traditional GUI space yet. Dioxus is composable so you can integrate it at multiple levels. The bevy folks are using our virtualdom plus state management with their own renderer.

caspar 3y ago

> Oh, and we're committed to the bevy integration. bevy_dioxus is already updated for 0.5 and we share corporate sponsors with the bevy folks. Silly question, but where can I see the updated bevy integration? It looks like https://crates.io/crates/bevy_dioxus/ https://crates.io/crates/bevy_dioxus/ is still using dioxus 0.2 and bevy 0.7 - both of which are quite old. Does your official bevy integration have some other name?