3 ms·

> there isn't much social benefit to keeping folks locked up Deterrent

by arrowsmith 3y ago

yokem55 3y ago
If 20+ years isn't enough of a deterrent, I seriously doubt even more would be.
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  I didn't say he should get more. I think 25 years is totally reasonable.
  - xvector 3y ago
    I can't think of any cases where someone would be deterred by 25 years in prison, but not, say, 8 years in prison.
    - digital_sawzall 3y ago
      I would easily go to jail for 8 years for $50+ million. 25 years would not be worth it to me for any amount. I am from El Paso, which is on the border with Mexico and grew up with many kids whose parents were smugglers and cartel affiliated. I know several parents who went to jail for ~10 years while were were in elementary school, the kids never wanted for anything, and then when the parents got out and started capital intensive business. One parent did 12 years and got out to start a a series of high end mexican restaurants, one started a steakhouse, one bought a small hotel, one started a commercial construction company. It's all part of the game, just how startup founders grind for years for the money.
      - yau8edq12i 3y ago
        Honestly? I sincerely doubt you, or anyone would actually, really, for realsies, go to prison for eight years for $50M. Anyone would beg to be released after a few weeks.
        robswc 3y ago
        I too think that people underestimate how much prison would absolutely suck. Especially if you lead a life that is otherwise crime-free.
        digital_sawzall 3y ago
        That is a complete middle class mindset. Jail is cool in the hood. I've done a few months for stupid stuff when I was young and it's not that bad. People risk 10 years for robbing bands for a couple thousand. A guaranteed $10 million would have lines around the block for volunteers in the neighborhood I grew up in.
        yau8edq12i 3y ago
        There's a difference between risking ten years and knowing for sure that you'll spend the ten years.
    - FabHK 3y ago
      You have little imagination. I was going to expand, but sibling comment expressed it well already.
ViewTrick1002 3y ago
Has never been shown to work when studying the impact of "harsh punishments".
kemayo 3y ago
In terms of "ruins your life", anything past a few years does that. Speaking purely for myself, I don't feel much difference in the deterrent effect from the punishment being 5 years or 25 years. Either one would utterly wreck everything about my life, and although the latter is worse it's not enough so to change my decisions.
- rwmj 3y ago
  If he gets out in 5 years he'll be doing the same thing. He showed no remorse or understanding that he did anything wrong. A 25 year sentence means we've got 20 more years of public safety.
rileymat2 3y ago
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf Prisons are good for punishing criminals and keeping them off the street, but prison sentences (particularly long sentences) are unlikely to deter future crime. Prisons actually may have the opposite effect: Inmates learn more effective crime strategies from each other, and time spent in prison may desensitize many to the threat of future imprisonment. See “Understanding the Relationship Between Sentencing and Deterrence” for additional discussion on prison as an ineffective deterrent. ——— 5. There is no proof that the death penalty deters criminals. According to the National Academy of Sciences, “Research on the deterrent effect of capital punishment is uninformative about whether capital punishment increases, decreases, or has no effect on homicide rates.”
- MadnessASAP 3y ago
  That is certainly correct for "street crime" where premeditation and risk reward analysis aren't a part of the equation. I have some pretty serious doubts about it when it comes to large financial crimes where both those things are absolutely part of the process. A death sentence probably isn't going to stop someone from killing another person, they're already off the deep end of irrationality. However 25 years of prison is probably going to be a significant deterrent to someone choosing to commit billions worth of fraud, maybe the profit margin isn't that important.
  - commakozzi 3y ago
    We ALL know/knew who Bernie Madoff was and what happened to him. Are you sure your logic is sound here?
  - riversflow 3y ago
    Yeah, I really think comparing common street crime with high financial crime is Apples and Oranges. Common criminals don’t have much to lose, yes going to prison sucks, but it means less when you live in low income housing with other people, can’t afford basic shit and/or are in significant mental distress. On the other hand Financial criminals usually have a LOT to lose, and to get into the position to commit those crimes they likely have a degree of rationality that’s less guaranteed than in street crime. Frankly, I think we need a lot more of this kind of punishment to get more trust back into our high-trust society. More rich people need to go to prison for crimes against society, because honestly it feels more like Madoff and SBF were one offs rather than business as usual.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

> there isn't much social benefit to keeping folks locked up Deterrent

yokem55 3y ago

If 20+ years isn't enough of a deterrent, I seriously doubt even more would be.

arrowsmith 3y ago
I didn't say he should get more. I think 25 years is totally reasonable.
- xvector 3y ago
  I can't think of any cases where someone would be deterred by 25 years in prison, but not, say, 8 years in prison.
  - digital_sawzall 3y ago
    I would easily go to jail for 8 years for $50+ million. 25 years would not be worth it to me for any amount. I am from El Paso, which is on the border with Mexico and grew up with many kids whose parents were smugglers and cartel affiliated. I know several parents who went to jail for ~10 years while were were in elementary school, the kids never wanted for anything, and then when the parents got out and started capital intensive business. One parent did 12 years and got out to start a a series of high end mexican restaurants, one started a steakhouse, one bought a small hotel, one started a commercial construction company. It's all part of the game, just how startup founders grind for years for the money.
    - yau8edq12i 3y ago
      Honestly? I sincerely doubt you, or anyone would actually, really, for realsies, go to prison for eight years for $50M. Anyone would beg to be released after a few weeks.
      - robswc 3y ago
        I too think that people underestimate how much prison would absolutely suck. Especially if you lead a life that is otherwise crime-free.
      - digital_sawzall 3y ago
        That is a complete middle class mindset. Jail is cool in the hood. I've done a few months for stupid stuff when I was young and it's not that bad. People risk 10 years for robbing bands for a couple thousand. A guaranteed $10 million would have lines around the block for volunteers in the neighborhood I grew up in.
        yau8edq12i 3y ago
        There's a difference between risking ten years and knowing for sure that you'll spend the ten years.
  - FabHK 3y ago
    You have little imagination. I was going to expand, but sibling comment expressed it well already.

ViewTrick1002 3y ago

Has never been shown to work when studying the impact of "harsh punishments".

kemayo 3y ago

In terms of "ruins your life", anything past a few years does that. Speaking purely for myself, I don't feel much difference in the deterrent effect from the punishment being 5 years or 25 years. Either one would utterly wreck everything about my life, and although the latter is worse it's not enough so to change my decisions.

rwmj 3y ago
If he gets out in 5 years he'll be doing the same thing. He showed no remorse or understanding that he did anything wrong. A 25 year sentence means we've got 20 more years of public safety.

rileymat2 3y ago

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf Prisons are good for punishing criminals and keeping them off the street, but prison sentences (particularly long sentences) are unlikely to deter future crime. Prisons actually may have the opposite effect: Inmates learn more effective crime strategies from each other, and time spent in prison may desensitize many to the threat of future imprisonment. See “Understanding the Relationship Between Sentencing and Deterrence” for additional discussion on prison as an ineffective deterrent. ——— 5. There is no proof that the death penalty deters criminals. According to the National Academy of Sciences, “Research on the deterrent effect of capital punishment is uninformative about whether capital punishment increases, decreases, or has no effect on homicide rates.”

MadnessASAP 3y ago
That is certainly correct for "street crime" where premeditation and risk reward analysis aren't a part of the equation. I have some pretty serious doubts about it when it comes to large financial crimes where both those things are absolutely part of the process. A death sentence probably isn't going to stop someone from killing another person, they're already off the deep end of irrationality. However 25 years of prison is probably going to be a significant deterrent to someone choosing to commit billions worth of fraud, maybe the profit margin isn't that important.
- commakozzi 3y ago
  We ALL know/knew who Bernie Madoff was and what happened to him. Are you sure your logic is sound here?
- riversflow 3y ago
  Yeah, I really think comparing common street crime with high financial crime is Apples and Oranges. Common criminals don’t have much to lose, yes going to prison sucks, but it means less when you live in low income housing with other people, can’t afford basic shit and/or are in significant mental distress. On the other hand Financial criminals usually have a LOT to lose, and to get into the position to commit those crimes they likely have a degree of rationality that’s less guaranteed than in street crime. Frankly, I think we need a lot more of this kind of punishment to get more trust back into our high-trust society. More rich people need to go to prison for crimes against society, because honestly it feels more like Madoff and SBF were one offs rather than business as usual.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]