6 ms·

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't aircon an easy case for the grid? The same sun that causes the heat can power solar panels, so it doesn't even need storage or lo

by pornel 3y ago

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't aircon an easy case for the grid? The same sun that causes the heat can power solar panels, so it doesn't even need storage or long-range transmission.

llm_trw 3y ago
You are assuming that you don't need an aircon at night. Something that's very much not the case during a multiday Australian heatwave.
- exe34 3y ago
  Do you have any insulation? I'm in the UK, and my previous rental had walls that leaked any heat within half an hour, but my current one, it heats up to 23 in the day due to the large windows facing the sun, and barely drops to 18 at night when it's 5-10 degrees outside.
  - llm_trw 3y ago
    >Do you have any insulation? No, this is Australia. Houses are more like tents than actual buildings.
    - _kb 3y ago
      Tents are sturdier.
    - throw0101b 3y ago
      > No, this is Australia. Houses are more like tents than actual buildings. Pre-AC being ubiquitous (or being invented), the way for people to cool off in summer was to have airflow. Insulation was a more of a cold climate thing, as keeping the heat in / cold out was more intuitive when burning wood or coal: thermal boundaries were more 'needed' when there was snow outside. Having thermal boundaries in your structure didn't make sense when it was as hot inside (due to lack of AC) as it was outside, and it has only been in recent years that people clued into that fact. But unfortunately there's a large stock of housing around that was built pre-clue in. Even now there are people who insist that houses need to "breathe", i.e., have holes / be drafty. They do not: * https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/Myth-A-House-Needs-to-Breathe https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/Myth-A-House-Needs-to-Br... * https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/most-houses-that-breathe-arent-very-comfortable https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/most-houses-tha... * https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/buildings-dont-need-to-breathe https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/buildings-dont-... Buildings need to be as air tight as possible, and be ventilated through mechanical means so that stale air is vented out and fresh air is brought in after being filtered and tempered (via an ERV).
      - sandworm101 3y ago
        >> Buildings need to be as air tight as possible Perhaps in California, Australia or other desert areas. The pacific northwest had major issues when OSB met the concept of "air tight" housing. No airflow in/through walls leads to condensation, mold and collapse of many "engineered" wood products held together with glue.
        throw0101b 3y ago
        > The pacific northwest had major issues when OSB met the concept of "air tight" housing. No airflow in/through walls leads to condensation, mold and collapse of many "engineered" wood products held together with glue. These are not indicators that air tightness is bad, but rather that people don't understand building science. Washington state (for one) has mandated air tightness levels (§R402.4.1.3) and testing (§R402.4.1.2): * https://sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-04/2021_WSEC_R_1stPrint-1_042623.pdf https://sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-04/2021_WSEC_R_... Air tight passive houses are built without issues in the US PNW: * https://phnw.org https://phnw.org * https://hammerandhand.com/high-performance/passive-house-builders/ https://hammerandhand.com/high-performance/passive-house-bui... * https://asiri-designs.com/f/how-to-design-an-energy-efficient-home-in-the-pacific-northwest https://asiri-designs.com/f/how-to-design-an-energy-efficien... The province of BC is mandating near-passive house levels of air tightness: * https://www.energyadvisor.pro/airtight-energy-advisor-contact-us/bc-step-code-builders-chart-energy-advisor/ https://www.energyadvisor.pro/airtight-energy-advisor-contac... * https://energystepcode.ca/how-it-works/ https://energystepcode.ca/how-it-works/ * PDF: https://www.bchousing.org/publications/Illustrated-Guide-Achieving-Airtightness.pdf https://www.bchousing.org/publications/Illustrated-Guide-Ach... Build your structure according to how physics works and it will work just as well from the tropics (IECC Zone 1) to the arctic (IECC Zone 8): * https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-p... * https://basc.pnnl.gov/images/iecc-climate-zone-map https://basc.pnnl.gov/images/iecc-climate-zone-map Air tightness is coming to building codes everywhere, and if you can't make it work then you shouldn't be building because you are incompetent: * https://www.iccsafe.org/building-safety-journal/bsj-technical/significant-changes-to-air-leakage-in-the-2021-international-energy-conservation-code/ https://www.iccsafe.org/building-safety-journal/bsj-technica...
  - patchtopic 3y ago
    I have a "normal" Melbourne brick veneer home, with decent roof insulation and insulated curtains. It handles the heat well for 1 day but a 2 or 3 day heatwave of 38 degree plus temperatures the bricks heat up in the sun and it gets quite uncomfortable even at night.
    - kampa 3y ago
      outside sun shield like German houses have is the way to go. Any curtains inside does not work very well
- mrkstu 3y ago
  Spent some time in Oz in the 90s- trying to sleep at night in my 2nd floor apartment as the heat rolling off the desert met the Brisbane coast without air conditioning remains some of my most unpleasant memories to this day. Despite a fan pointed right at me I’d awake every morning with a sweat soaked mattresses…
  - worthless-trash 3y ago
    Brisbane is quite pleasant compared to the NQ. Good times. Source: In brisbane and lived in the north.
    - mrkstu 3y ago
      Yep, visited Townsville and it was even more hot/humid, I imagine places like Cairns take it up even further but don’t have quite as much hot desert air sweeping in as Brisbane since its more of a peninsula.
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  How did people in Australia get by before air conditioning? I'm not saying that to be snarky, I would generally love to know. I live in a moderately cold climate (England) and I often wonder how people here survived through the winter before the comforts of modern technology. And England's not that cold - how the hell did indigenous Canadians do it, for example? Did people just shiver by a fire for months at a time? EDIT: I didn't think I was being snarky in my original final sentence, but to avoid misunderstandings I've removed it.
  - jenny91 3y ago
    The first sentence is a good question, the last sentence is unnecessary snark. I think there are two main things at play: buildings used to be built differently, and yes, people prefer not to suffer these days. Old Australian buildings (e.g. "Queenslanders") were often built on poles to let the air circulate underneath, they'd have the roof extend far over windows to stop sunlight (and heat) getting in. Those are not the most enjoyable places to live in, these days people prefer a bit of sunlight during the day, and a constant draft is not pleasant in winter. And yes, I imagine people just didn't sleep all that well and spent heatwaves sitting around in the coldest spot in the house waiting for it to be over. These days people want to sleep well throughout the year and want to be productive even during heatwaves.
    - snapplebobapple 3y ago
      People were also a lot harder back then because life was harder through the entirety of their existence. Obesity was rare, the average level of fitness was much, much higher, and the teens and adults probably showed a bunch of survivorship bias for hardiness because the weakest died during childhood pretty routinely. I suspect environmental conditions that would kill the average diabetic, obese 45 year old today was just a normal summer day to people back then and was well mostly well tolerated.
  - germinalphrase 3y ago
    I live in Minnesota and have spent a reasonable amount of time winter camping. You use these cool canvas tents and a small, packable wood stove. This has brought me into contact with some folks that live lifestyles somewhat closer to those old days than the new ones - so far as expectations on infrastructure go. For one, they wear warm clothing almost all the time. It’s significantly more efficient to heat yourself (through clothing, food and movement) than heating an entire room/building. Also: wood stoves large and small can pump out a lot of heat. You can kick up the small tin metal camping stove and make your canvas tent 75 degrees, dry out any wet clothes. Likewise, a large iron stove can make a room boiling. After all, saunas - in one form or another - are a common feature of northern cultures.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sandworm101 3y ago
Heat comes from the sun, but in reality after the sun. Generally speaking, the hottest time of the day (late afternoon) isn't when the sun is brightest (noon). Then people need to sleep, which means they want to be cooler during the evening. One way to beat the heat is to adjust the workday. Start work at noon. Let people sleep during the cool of morning. But that is a bridge too far for most cultures.
- sourdoughness 3y ago
  Start at noon? That’s the exact opposite of the approach people take when it’s hot around here (I live in southern Australia where it regularly breaks 40C in summer). Start early - before the sun’s up if you can - and be ready to knock off soon after lunch.
kkfx 3y ago
Where I live (French Alps) that's true, because there is a big circadian delta, meaning I can have 30+℃ (86℉) during the day, but at 7pm the temperature is already 25℃ (77℉), at 9pm 20℃ (68℉), at midnight 17℃ (63℉) etc. But where I was born (northern Italy) the circadian delta is MUCH lower, if it's 35℃ during the day, the night minima is 30℃ at miminum. So you need aircon 24/7, not just during the day.

by pornel 3y ago

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't aircon an easy case for the grid? The same sun that causes the heat can power solar panels, so it doesn't even need storage or long-range transmission.

llm_trw 3y ago

You are assuming that you don't need an aircon at night. Something that's very much not the case during a multiday Australian heatwave.

exe34 3y ago
Do you have any insulation? I'm in the UK, and my previous rental had walls that leaked any heat within half an hour, but my current one, it heats up to 23 in the day due to the large windows facing the sun, and barely drops to 18 at night when it's 5-10 degrees outside.
- llm_trw 3y ago
  >Do you have any insulation? No, this is Australia. Houses are more like tents than actual buildings.
  - _kb 3y ago
    Tents are sturdier.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > No, this is Australia. Houses are more like tents than actual buildings. Pre-AC being ubiquitous (or being invented), the way for people to cool off in summer was to have airflow. Insulation was a more of a cold climate thing, as keeping the heat in / cold out was more intuitive when burning wood or coal: thermal boundaries were more 'needed' when there was snow outside. Having thermal boundaries in your structure didn't make sense when it was as hot inside (due to lack of AC) as it was outside, and it has only been in recent years that people clued into that fact. But unfortunately there's a large stock of housing around that was built pre-clue in. Even now there are people who insist that houses need to "breathe", i.e., have holes / be drafty. They do not: * https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/Myth-A-House-Needs-to-Breathe https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/Myth-A-House-Needs-to-Br... * https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/most-houses-that-breathe-arent-very-comfortable https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/most-houses-tha... * https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/buildings-dont-need-to-breathe https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/buildings-dont-... Buildings need to be as air tight as possible, and be ventilated through mechanical means so that stale air is vented out and fresh air is brought in after being filtered and tempered (via an ERV).
    - sandworm101 3y ago
      >> Buildings need to be as air tight as possible Perhaps in California, Australia or other desert areas. The pacific northwest had major issues when OSB met the concept of "air tight" housing. No airflow in/through walls leads to condensation, mold and collapse of many "engineered" wood products held together with glue.
      - throw0101b 3y ago
        > The pacific northwest had major issues when OSB met the concept of "air tight" housing. No airflow in/through walls leads to condensation, mold and collapse of many "engineered" wood products held together with glue. These are not indicators that air tightness is bad, but rather that people don't understand building science. Washington state (for one) has mandated air tightness levels (§R402.4.1.3) and testing (§R402.4.1.2): * https://sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-04/2021_WSEC_R_1stPrint-1_042623.pdf https://sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-04/2021_WSEC_R_... Air tight passive houses are built without issues in the US PNW: * https://phnw.org https://phnw.org * https://hammerandhand.com/high-performance/passive-house-builders/ https://hammerandhand.com/high-performance/passive-house-bui... * https://asiri-designs.com/f/how-to-design-an-energy-efficient-home-in-the-pacific-northwest https://asiri-designs.com/f/how-to-design-an-energy-efficien... The province of BC is mandating near-passive house levels of air tightness: * https://www.energyadvisor.pro/airtight-energy-advisor-contact-us/bc-step-code-builders-chart-energy-advisor/ https://www.energyadvisor.pro/airtight-energy-advisor-contac... * https://energystepcode.ca/how-it-works/ https://energystepcode.ca/how-it-works/ * PDF: https://www.bchousing.org/publications/Illustrated-Guide-Achieving-Airtightness.pdf https://www.bchousing.org/publications/Illustrated-Guide-Ach... Build your structure according to how physics works and it will work just as well from the tropics (IECC Zone 1) to the arctic (IECC Zone 8): * https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-p... * https://basc.pnnl.gov/images/iecc-climate-zone-map https://basc.pnnl.gov/images/iecc-climate-zone-map Air tightness is coming to building codes everywhere, and if you can't make it work then you shouldn't be building because you are incompetent: * https://www.iccsafe.org/building-safety-journal/bsj-technical/significant-changes-to-air-leakage-in-the-2021-international-energy-conservation-code/ https://www.iccsafe.org/building-safety-journal/bsj-technica...
- patchtopic 3y ago
  I have a "normal" Melbourne brick veneer home, with decent roof insulation and insulated curtains. It handles the heat well for 1 day but a 2 or 3 day heatwave of 38 degree plus temperatures the bricks heat up in the sun and it gets quite uncomfortable even at night.
  - kampa 3y ago
    outside sun shield like German houses have is the way to go. Any curtains inside does not work very well
mrkstu 3y ago
Spent some time in Oz in the 90s- trying to sleep at night in my 2nd floor apartment as the heat rolling off the desert met the Brisbane coast without air conditioning remains some of my most unpleasant memories to this day. Despite a fan pointed right at me I’d awake every morning with a sweat soaked mattresses…
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  Brisbane is quite pleasant compared to the NQ. Good times. Source: In brisbane and lived in the north.
  - mrkstu 3y ago
    Yep, visited Townsville and it was even more hot/humid, I imagine places like Cairns take it up even further but don’t have quite as much hot desert air sweeping in as Brisbane since its more of a peninsula.
arrowsmith 3y ago
How did people in Australia get by before air conditioning? I'm not saying that to be snarky, I would generally love to know. I live in a moderately cold climate (England) and I often wonder how people here survived through the winter before the comforts of modern technology. And England's not that cold - how the hell did indigenous Canadians do it, for example? Did people just shiver by a fire for months at a time? EDIT: I didn't think I was being snarky in my original final sentence, but to avoid misunderstandings I've removed it.
- jenny91 3y ago
  The first sentence is a good question, the last sentence is unnecessary snark. I think there are two main things at play: buildings used to be built differently, and yes, people prefer not to suffer these days. Old Australian buildings (e.g. "Queenslanders") were often built on poles to let the air circulate underneath, they'd have the roof extend far over windows to stop sunlight (and heat) getting in. Those are not the most enjoyable places to live in, these days people prefer a bit of sunlight during the day, and a constant draft is not pleasant in winter. And yes, I imagine people just didn't sleep all that well and spent heatwaves sitting around in the coldest spot in the house waiting for it to be over. These days people want to sleep well throughout the year and want to be productive even during heatwaves.
  - snapplebobapple 3y ago
    People were also a lot harder back then because life was harder through the entirety of their existence. Obesity was rare, the average level of fitness was much, much higher, and the teens and adults probably showed a bunch of survivorship bias for hardiness because the weakest died during childhood pretty routinely. I suspect environmental conditions that would kill the average diabetic, obese 45 year old today was just a normal summer day to people back then and was well mostly well tolerated.
- germinalphrase 3y ago
  I live in Minnesota and have spent a reasonable amount of time winter camping. You use these cool canvas tents and a small, packable wood stove. This has brought me into contact with some folks that live lifestyles somewhat closer to those old days than the new ones - so far as expectations on infrastructure go. For one, they wear warm clothing almost all the time. It’s significantly more efficient to heat yourself (through clothing, food and movement) than heating an entire room/building. Also: wood stoves large and small can pump out a lot of heat. You can kick up the small tin metal camping stove and make your canvas tent 75 degrees, dry out any wet clothes. Likewise, a large iron stove can make a room boiling. After all, saunas - in one form or another - are a common feature of northern cultures.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

sandworm101 3y ago

Heat comes from the sun, but in reality after the sun. Generally speaking, the hottest time of the day (late afternoon) isn't when the sun is brightest (noon). Then people need to sleep, which means they want to be cooler during the evening. One way to beat the heat is to adjust the workday. Start work at noon. Let people sleep during the cool of morning. But that is a bridge too far for most cultures.

sourdoughness 3y ago
Start at noon? That’s the exact opposite of the approach people take when it’s hot around here (I live in southern Australia where it regularly breaks 40C in summer). Start early - before the sun’s up if you can - and be ready to knock off soon after lunch.

kkfx 3y ago

Where I live (French Alps) that's true, because there is a big circadian delta, meaning I can have 30+℃ (86℉) during the day, but at 7pm the temperature is already 25℃ (77℉), at 9pm 20℃ (68℉), at midnight 17℃ (63℉) etc. But where I was born (northern Italy) the circadian delta is MUCH lower, if it's 35℃ during the day, the night minima is 30℃ at miminum. So you need aircon 24/7, not just during the day.