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> they need meds to function Once you start taking meds you develop dependence and so your definitely need them. But if there was a simpler environmental caus

> they need meds to function Once you start taking meds you develop dependence and so your definitely need them. But if there was a simpler environmental cause/solution, now that is out of reach entirely. It would take years for their mind to re-balance. If you tried everything and nothing worked, then go for the meds, and take on the risks and side-effects. But no one does this. They get diagnosed and then straight on meds for the rest of their life.

eqvinox 3y ago
> Once you start taking meds you develop dependence and so your definitely need them. In this generality, this statement is plain false folk tale. It certainly applies for some conditions and treatments, but without a study to back it up you should not be making this statement in regards to ADHD and its medications. > If you tried everything and nothing worked, then go for the meds, and take on the risks and side-effects. But no one does this. They get diagnosed and then straight on meds for the rest of their life. This is equally untrue. I can't make statements about other places and health care systems, but where I live they throw the kitchen sink at you for about a year or two before they progressively walk you up to the more "extreme" medication if nothing else helped.
- eqvinox 3y ago
  > If you tried everything and nothing worked, then go for the meds, and take on the risks and side-effects. By the way — you say this with some nonchalance. Those two years of "tried everything and nothing worked" cost me my university degree.
  - StefanBatory 3y ago
    Someone without ADHD will never understand this, I think.
  - Swordfish12345 3y ago
    May I ask: when you say you "tried everything and nothing worked"...was this before you knew about the existence of ADHD? The tragedy I find is that people first discover ADHD and then go straight on meds. They don't use this new realization and understanding of their condition to try to solve it without medication. And once you begin medication, your brain starts to change, and you really can't isolate whether a behavioral change is actually working independent of your medicated state. So begins a long journey of decreasing efficacy of the meds to the point that you will end up worse than where you started. Also curious what you did try? What was the longest time you disconnected from the internet and social media? How much did you exercise?
    - eqvinox 3y ago
      > May I ask: when you say you "tried everything and nothing worked"...was this before you knew about the existence of ADHD? No, this was after I knew about the existence of ADHD, and from the structure of the comments this should have been obvious to you. I was referencing my previous comment: "they throw the kitchen sink at you for about a year or two before they progressively walk you up to the more "extreme" medication if nothing else helped." It is quite clear that this refers to the early treatment phase after diagnosis. > Also curious what you did try? What was the longest time you disconnected from the internet and social media? How much did you exercise? To answer all 3 questions: enough, enough, and enough.
      - Swordfish12345 3y ago
        How do you know it was enough?
        eqvinox 3y ago
        Wow, dude, just wow.
        Woshiwuja 3y ago
        He doesnt understand. For him its just "quit tiktok lul". kinda embarassing
- Swordfish12345 3y ago
  > dependence https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.11060940 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.1... Your brain adapts. It's pretty obvious. If you give a mouse access to a button that triggers dopamine release, they keep pressing the button until they starve to death. The brain has evolved a system to maintain homeostasis to prevent this happening.
  - eqvinox 3y ago
    > https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.11060940 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.1... This paper does not say what you think it does. Please refer to my other comment discussing your sources.
throwaway11460 3y ago
No, you don't develop any dependence like that. You just go back to the absolutely disfunctional state you were in before when you stop taking them. If it was anything like drug addiction then it'd go back to normal after some time - but the normal of people with ADHD is different.
- Swordfish12345 3y ago
  > You just go back to the absolutely disfunctional state you were in before when you stop taking them. Your brain adapts by creating more dopamine transporters...meaning you need more dopamine for same effect. This happens in an effort to maintain homeostasis. There is no free dopamine unfortunately...what goes up must come down. The brain's homeostasis system is hard-wired. https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.11060940 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.1... > but the normal of people with ADHD is different. This is probably the biggest misunderstanding people have. They are told that their brain doesn't produce as much dopamine as a normal brain, which is why they can take the meds and normal people cannot. But this is not the case. Each brain produces the right amount for itself, and if you dope it with more, then it will counteract this, and you will build tolerance. There is no evidence about the dopamine theory of ADHD. It's total conjecture with a couple of papers here and there. There are no biomarkers or imaging for diagnosing ADHD. The end result is you are going to end up morphing people's brains to the point that they need to take the meds to attain their original state. But whatever, no one seems to care, too much money to be made.
  - throwaway11460 3y ago
    I spent 25 years of my life without medication, it crippled my life and I couldn't get anything done unless absolutely, totally hyper focused on it. I don't even have high school. I failed at every job I had even though I won national programming competitions and everyone described me as the best programmer they ever met (and said that my technical knowledge is excellent but I'm just not doing the job so they have to let me go). I was homeless for some short time. Up until I got diagnosed and medicated. First I had therapies, nothing. Then I had non-stimulant medication - worked but I had terrible side effects. Now I'm on methylphenidate and everything works like clockwork now. Frankly I don't care about the theory behind it. It turned my life around and that's all I need to know.

eqvinox 3y ago

> Once you start taking meds you develop dependence and so your definitely need them. In this generality, this statement is plain false folk tale. It certainly applies for some conditions and treatments, but without a study to back it up you should not be making this statement in regards to ADHD and its medications. > If you tried everything and nothing worked, then go for the meds, and take on the risks and side-effects. But no one does this. They get diagnosed and then straight on meds for the rest of their life. This is equally untrue. I can't make statements about other places and health care systems, but where I live they throw the kitchen sink at you for about a year or two before they progressively walk you up to the more "extreme" medication if nothing else helped.

eqvinox 3y ago
> If you tried everything and nothing worked, then go for the meds, and take on the risks and side-effects. By the way — you say this with some nonchalance. Those two years of "tried everything and nothing worked" cost me my university degree.
- StefanBatory 3y ago
  Someone without ADHD will never understand this, I think.
- Swordfish12345 3y ago
  May I ask: when you say you "tried everything and nothing worked"...was this before you knew about the existence of ADHD? The tragedy I find is that people first discover ADHD and then go straight on meds. They don't use this new realization and understanding of their condition to try to solve it without medication. And once you begin medication, your brain starts to change, and you really can't isolate whether a behavioral change is actually working independent of your medicated state. So begins a long journey of decreasing efficacy of the meds to the point that you will end up worse than where you started. Also curious what you did try? What was the longest time you disconnected from the internet and social media? How much did you exercise?
  - eqvinox 3y ago
    > May I ask: when you say you "tried everything and nothing worked"...was this before you knew about the existence of ADHD? No, this was after I knew about the existence of ADHD, and from the structure of the comments this should have been obvious to you. I was referencing my previous comment: "they throw the kitchen sink at you for about a year or two before they progressively walk you up to the more "extreme" medication if nothing else helped." It is quite clear that this refers to the early treatment phase after diagnosis. > Also curious what you did try? What was the longest time you disconnected from the internet and social media? How much did you exercise? To answer all 3 questions: enough, enough, and enough.
    - Swordfish12345 3y ago
      How do you know it was enough?
      - eqvinox 3y ago
        Wow, dude, just wow.
        Woshiwuja 3y ago
        He doesnt understand. For him its just "quit tiktok lul". kinda embarassing
Swordfish12345 3y ago
> dependence https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.11060940 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.1... Your brain adapts. It's pretty obvious. If you give a mouse access to a button that triggers dopamine release, they keep pressing the button until they starve to death. The brain has evolved a system to maintain homeostasis to prevent this happening.
- eqvinox 3y ago
  > https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.11060940 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.1... This paper does not say what you think it does. Please refer to my other comment discussing your sources.

throwaway11460 3y ago

No, you don't develop any dependence like that. You just go back to the absolutely disfunctional state you were in before when you stop taking them. If it was anything like drug addiction then it'd go back to normal after some time - but the normal of people with ADHD is different.

Swordfish12345 3y ago
> You just go back to the absolutely disfunctional state you were in before when you stop taking them. Your brain adapts by creating more dopamine transporters...meaning you need more dopamine for same effect. This happens in an effort to maintain homeostasis. There is no free dopamine unfortunately...what goes up must come down. The brain's homeostasis system is hard-wired. https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.11060940 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.1... > but the normal of people with ADHD is different. This is probably the biggest misunderstanding people have. They are told that their brain doesn't produce as much dopamine as a normal brain, which is why they can take the meds and normal people cannot. But this is not the case. Each brain produces the right amount for itself, and if you dope it with more, then it will counteract this, and you will build tolerance. There is no evidence about the dopamine theory of ADHD. It's total conjecture with a couple of papers here and there. There are no biomarkers or imaging for diagnosing ADHD. The end result is you are going to end up morphing people's brains to the point that they need to take the meds to attain their original state. But whatever, no one seems to care, too much money to be made.
- throwaway11460 3y ago
  I spent 25 years of my life without medication, it crippled my life and I couldn't get anything done unless absolutely, totally hyper focused on it. I don't even have high school. I failed at every job I had even though I won national programming competitions and everyone described me as the best programmer they ever met (and said that my technical knowledge is excellent but I'm just not doing the job so they have to let me go). I was homeless for some short time. Up until I got diagnosed and medicated. First I had therapies, nothing. Then I had non-stimulant medication - worked but I had terrible side effects. Now I'm on methylphenidate and everything works like clockwork now. Frankly I don't care about the theory behind it. It turned my life around and that's all I need to know.