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I don't get it. I don't want to bag lua scripting in games, because I fully support that; supreme commander was a pretty good example of how you can do this ri

I don't get it. I don't want to bag lua scripting in games, because I fully support that; supreme commander was a pretty good example of how you can do this right. ...but I can't help but think moai isn't it. I've seen the code of three groups who are working on games using this engine (primarily because it's cross platform), and their code all makes me shudder. It's rubbish (no offence guys). lobsterGfx = MOAIGfxQuad2D.new () lobsterGfx:setTexture ( "openlobster.png" ) lobsterGfx:setRect ( -128, -128, 128, 128 ) explosionGfx = MOAIGfxQuad2D.new () explosionGfx:setTexture ( "fire.png" ) explosionGfx:setRect ( -32, -32, 32, 32 ) That's not a high level API controlled by a scripting engine. That's _low level_ api controlled by a scripting engine. All the code I've seen using this engine suffers from the same thing I've seen a dozen or more times in unity projects, but worse: 1) no unit tests, 2) spagetti code, 3) no interfaces or dynamically replaceable behaviour, 4) no documentation, 5) no workflow for artists. It's a game engine by programmers for programmers to hack with; and I'll give it that; it _is_ fun to hack with, and it's nice to be able to shift the behaviour of things a little bit and see the results immediately... but that alone doesn't make it a good choice for serious projects.

aptwebapps 14y ago
That's not a high level API controlled by a scripting engine. That's _low level_ api controlled by a scripting engine. To be fair, they call it a "minimalist game client framework" in the FAQ and a "minimalist cross platform C++ game engine with a Lua-based scripting interface" in the SDK's page in the wiki, so they aren't billing it as a high level API.
seclorum 14y ago
Its a good choice for serious projects. Nobody serious would ever bother with complaining about the low-level nature of the MOAI runtime without understanding its design. Having done 5 projects in MOAI so far, I can tell you this: what you are isolating as a fault is actually a very big strength. If I need it, I can drill down and have absolute control over the Quads. If I don't need it -big deal, I isolate into higher-level abstract API's, and away we go. I really don't think you're looking at it fairly, or professionally. If you want a higher-level API, choose Corona or something else. If you want serious power, there is nothing out there better than MOAI.
- shadowmint 14y ago
  shrug As I said, I hear that from people, but I don't get it. If you're writing good software you should have a nice Model, and a nice clean high performance visualization core that renders that model. Scripting engines should be an easy and quick way to modify the state of the Model, not something you _write the model in_. There is everything from speed to memory usage to testing and verifiability wrong with writing your model in your scripting language. Don't deny it; it's absolutely true. The only possible benefit is flexibility, which you take at the cost of all the other things I've mentioned. Arguably MOAI actually provides you the tools to do this properly with its C++ api, and a real project would implement the state model and rendering code in C++ and build it as part of the moai binary, correctly using the scripting engine to modify only the state of the game model itself. I can see some use for the low level operations as part of the scripting language for doing _clever things_ in a game, like cut scenes, where one-time-non-state-based operations take place. ...but writing the whole game in it? No. On the other hand, people seem happy to 'hack away' with it and have fun, and I approve of that. Would seriously hesitate to recommend it for a professional project.
  - seclorum 14y ago
    I believe that MOAI does have a nice Model, and a visualization core that renders that model. That model is composed of Props, Decks, Layers. Physics. Action Timeline. MOAI sets up a very powerful engine, which you can tie up to any kind of rig, as needed, to produce the game you're developing. Its such a great game engine that in fact you can even build a real GUI with it, quickly and efficiently, without much fuss. I wrote a physics game, which consisted of a single Game Logic thread, just doing the level-switching and score-keeping, while the physics engine was being driven by Lua tables. This .. 200 lines of code .. can be fed 3 Lua tables of information, per-Level, and its a functioning game. Speed? MOAI has great speed. Really, honestly. Memory usage .. umm .. it was designed to make rendering on the GL/ES pipeline extremely memory efficient. Need to choose your strategy for glyph caching, based on the size of your data-set? Guess what, MOAI can offer you hardware-accelerated font rendering with optimal texture strategies. It can offer multiple strategies, according to the limitations of your game - need lots and lots of textures, as soon as possible? MOAI can scale, from thick to thin. Writing the whole game in it? Well actually, you use MOAI but write the game in Lua, and actually: Yes, its great. The whole game in MOAI is .. much, much less code, than it is in many competing API's, and its hell fun to boot. >Would seriously hesitate to recommend it for a professional project. I'm professionally recommending that you take a closer look at it. There is much, much power, and it seems you have missed it.

aptwebapps 14y ago

That's not a high level API controlled by a scripting engine. That's _low level_ api controlled by a scripting engine. To be fair, they call it a "minimalist game client framework" in the FAQ and a "minimalist cross platform C++ game engine with a Lua-based scripting interface" in the SDK's page in the wiki, so they aren't billing it as a high level API.

seclorum 14y ago

Its a good choice for serious projects. Nobody serious would ever bother with complaining about the low-level nature of the MOAI runtime without understanding its design. Having done 5 projects in MOAI so far, I can tell you this: what you are isolating as a fault is actually a very big strength. If I need it, I can drill down and have absolute control over the Quads. If I don't need it -big deal, I isolate into higher-level abstract API's, and away we go. I really don't think you're looking at it fairly, or professionally. If you want a higher-level API, choose Corona or something else. If you want serious power, there is nothing out there better than MOAI.

shadowmint 14y ago
shrug As I said, I hear that from people, but I don't get it. If you're writing good software you should have a nice Model, and a nice clean high performance visualization core that renders that model. Scripting engines should be an easy and quick way to modify the state of the Model, not something you _write the model in_. There is everything from speed to memory usage to testing and verifiability wrong with writing your model in your scripting language. Don't deny it; it's absolutely true. The only possible benefit is flexibility, which you take at the cost of all the other things I've mentioned. Arguably MOAI actually provides you the tools to do this properly with its C++ api, and a real project would implement the state model and rendering code in C++ and build it as part of the moai binary, correctly using the scripting engine to modify only the state of the game model itself. I can see some use for the low level operations as part of the scripting language for doing _clever things_ in a game, like cut scenes, where one-time-non-state-based operations take place. ...but writing the whole game in it? No. On the other hand, people seem happy to 'hack away' with it and have fun, and I approve of that. Would seriously hesitate to recommend it for a professional project.
- seclorum 14y ago
  I believe that MOAI does have a nice Model, and a visualization core that renders that model. That model is composed of Props, Decks, Layers. Physics. Action Timeline. MOAI sets up a very powerful engine, which you can tie up to any kind of rig, as needed, to produce the game you're developing. Its such a great game engine that in fact you can even build a real GUI with it, quickly and efficiently, without much fuss. I wrote a physics game, which consisted of a single Game Logic thread, just doing the level-switching and score-keeping, while the physics engine was being driven by Lua tables. This .. 200 lines of code .. can be fed 3 Lua tables of information, per-Level, and its a functioning game. Speed? MOAI has great speed. Really, honestly. Memory usage .. umm .. it was designed to make rendering on the GL/ES pipeline extremely memory efficient. Need to choose your strategy for glyph caching, based on the size of your data-set? Guess what, MOAI can offer you hardware-accelerated font rendering with optimal texture strategies. It can offer multiple strategies, according to the limitations of your game - need lots and lots of textures, as soon as possible? MOAI can scale, from thick to thin. Writing the whole game in it? Well actually, you use MOAI but write the game in Lua, and actually: Yes, its great. The whole game in MOAI is .. much, much less code, than it is in many competing API's, and its hell fun to boot. >Would seriously hesitate to recommend it for a professional project. I'm professionally recommending that you take a closer look at it. There is much, much power, and it seems you have missed it.