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‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least

‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have much costs so I worked for very little and was eager so I worked hard and tried to soak up everything. It seems these are different times and as a small company, I simply cannot take the risk for the salaries people are asking with zippo experience.

busterarm 3y ago
On the other hand, senior pay expectations are wildly out of orbit because of some exuberant behavior from the FAANGs during COVID. It's been extra annoying because they say the compensation range is fine before the interviews and suddenly their pay expectations are 20%-50% higher than the high end of the range after interviews even when they have no other offers and even if they didn't wow us in the interview.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  I guess that depends a little more on location than the junior situation; here (EU), the seniors applying are much more stable salary wise. Much less golden mountains; they just want a job and stability, not dreams and chaos. Most I speak to over 40 want jobs for life, not hop. Raised by inflation yearly and that for the coming 27 or so years until retirement.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Oh for sure it's definitely in the States where everyone has a big head.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Is it possible everyone has a small pocket outside the States?
      - busterarm 3y ago
        I didn't mean what I said sarcastically. Everyone I know elsewhere in this industry who wants a big salary just comes and gets a job here.
- t-writescode 3y ago
  Where are you seeing that? A lot of senior roles I'm seeing lately have a salary range of 150k. That used to be the salary of mid-level in my area (PNW)
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Not as severe but that's sort of my point. For a brief year or two some companies were offering senior talent insane/unsustainable money and salaries are coming back down. People still think that they're worth the insane money that FAANGs were paying during the lockdowns that they have since mostly laid off. It's fairly normal in NY for senior IC hires to be offered 180k-230k plus some equity. I'm seeing candidates who agree to interview being told this range and then come offer time they won't budge below 280k cash and expect big equity. Sure, Facebook was paying people that two years ago but they are aggressively lowballing people right now and we aren't.
Tknl 3y ago
As a hiring manager I can understand this view. I'm also in SaaS dev. But in the Netherlands at least most of the raising IT salary demands aligned with inflation, particularly if one includes housing market inflation. People are not going to accept a salary which still won't get them towards homeownrship with dual incomes if they can avoid it.
- yurishimo 3y ago
  Can I ask roughly where you are in NL? I'm an immigrant from the US and still trying to get a hold on prices here in regards to salary. My wife and I together make around 7500 gross in the Eindhoven area. Still enough to get ahead if we are conscious of our expenses, but not lavish by any stretch. The country seems to be shifting some and that's always a bit nerve racking when you're one step lower on the social ladder than everyone else. Are salaries really that much higher in the Holland compared to Brabant? I have ten years of experience as a fullstack dev.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  Yes, and in NL (I am Dutch) that problem is a lot bigger than in many other places. But if they feel they can avoid it, they should; this might mean no job (for a long time) though. Which is currently the reality. It’ll get better probably but no one knows when so these are choices; earn less with a job or wait? There is a lot of talent but there is also a bottom line; the gap senior/medior/junior is just not big enough so it makes little sense to hire a junior currently.
debtless4080 3y ago
My situation speaks to the exact opposite. I'm currently studying computer science at grad level because I can't find even an UNPAID gig. It is honestly a soul destroying experience.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  Hang in there. I was looking at some graphs from the Fed that showed Technology hiring vs unemployment. I think it’ll turn around by June/July.
throwaway5959 3y ago
“I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate” Oh I’m sure. The narcissism is palpable.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  We always had a good mix of graduates and experienced devs, it’s in the last years that the prices jumped too much to keep that working. Nothing to do with emotions or narcissism.

busterarm 3y ago

On the other hand, senior pay expectations are wildly out of orbit because of some exuberant behavior from the FAANGs during COVID. It's been extra annoying because they say the compensation range is fine before the interviews and suddenly their pay expectations are 20%-50% higher than the high end of the range after interviews even when they have no other offers and even if they didn't wow us in the interview.

anonzzzies 3y ago
I guess that depends a little more on location than the junior situation; here (EU), the seniors applying are much more stable salary wise. Much less golden mountains; they just want a job and stability, not dreams and chaos. Most I speak to over 40 want jobs for life, not hop. Raised by inflation yearly and that for the coming 27 or so years until retirement.
- busterarm 3y ago
  Oh for sure it's definitely in the States where everyone has a big head.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Is it possible everyone has a small pocket outside the States?
    - busterarm 3y ago
      I didn't mean what I said sarcastically. Everyone I know elsewhere in this industry who wants a big salary just comes and gets a job here.
t-writescode 3y ago
Where are you seeing that? A lot of senior roles I'm seeing lately have a salary range of 150k. That used to be the salary of mid-level in my area (PNW)
- busterarm 3y ago
  Not as severe but that's sort of my point. For a brief year or two some companies were offering senior talent insane/unsustainable money and salaries are coming back down. People still think that they're worth the insane money that FAANGs were paying during the lockdowns that they have since mostly laid off. It's fairly normal in NY for senior IC hires to be offered 180k-230k plus some equity. I'm seeing candidates who agree to interview being told this range and then come offer time they won't budge below 280k cash and expect big equity. Sure, Facebook was paying people that two years ago but they are aggressively lowballing people right now and we aren't.

Tknl 3y ago

As a hiring manager I can understand this view. I'm also in SaaS dev. But in the Netherlands at least most of the raising IT salary demands aligned with inflation, particularly if one includes housing market inflation. People are not going to accept a salary which still won't get them towards homeownrship with dual incomes if they can avoid it.

yurishimo 3y ago
Can I ask roughly where you are in NL? I'm an immigrant from the US and still trying to get a hold on prices here in regards to salary. My wife and I together make around 7500 gross in the Eindhoven area. Still enough to get ahead if we are conscious of our expenses, but not lavish by any stretch. The country seems to be shifting some and that's always a bit nerve racking when you're one step lower on the social ladder than everyone else. Are salaries really that much higher in the Holland compared to Brabant? I have ten years of experience as a fullstack dev.
anonzzzies 3y ago
Yes, and in NL (I am Dutch) that problem is a lot bigger than in many other places. But if they feel they can avoid it, they should; this might mean no job (for a long time) though. Which is currently the reality. It’ll get better probably but no one knows when so these are choices; earn less with a job or wait? There is a lot of talent but there is also a bottom line; the gap senior/medior/junior is just not big enough so it makes little sense to hire a junior currently.

debtless4080 3y ago

My situation speaks to the exact opposite. I'm currently studying computer science at grad level because I can't find even an UNPAID gig. It is honestly a soul destroying experience.

throwaway5959 3y ago
Hang in there. I was looking at some graphs from the Fed that showed Technology hiring vs unemployment. I think it’ll turn around by June/July.

throwaway5959 3y ago

“I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate” Oh I’m sure. The narcissism is palpable.

anonzzzies 3y ago
We always had a good mix of graduates and experienced devs, it’s in the last years that the prices jumped too much to keep that working. Nothing to do with emotions or narcissism.