4 ms·

> they are looking to end this back and forth once and for all You can't eradicate ideologies like Hamas through military means. You do it by turning people a

> they are looking to end this back and forth once and for all You can't eradicate ideologies like Hamas through military means. You do it by turning people against them and robbing them of legitimacy. Instead of using the hostage situation as an opportunity to change Gazan's mind about Hamas, Israel killed ~30k of them, created a humanitarian disaster and bred an entirely new generation of Hamas supporters.

bushbaba 3y ago
That 30k includes over 10k militants.
- outop 3y ago
  [flagged]
lupire 3y ago
You are assuming without evidence that "ideology" is what the Israeli government and military are trying to eradicate. Instead of assuming people are incompetent, consider that you might be misapprehending their goals.
scotty79 3y ago
> Instead of using the hostage situation as an opportunity to change Gazan's mind about Hamas How would that suppose to happen if the civilians celebrated en masse the great success of killing and harming the Jews? Civilians in Gaza have zero sympathy for the Jews. Why would they change their minds when every cruelty against any Jew is a cause for applause for them? Compare this to the reaction of the West towards the terrorist attack in Moscow. Many Europeans expressed compassion. Would you think relationship between Russia and the West was salvageable if the entire Europe cheered on the streets because some Russians died?
- aprilthird2021 3y ago
  > Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza > People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer... Please let me know when we will completely destroy the ideology of Israelis who applaud every cruelty against Palestinians
  - scotty79 3y ago
    I'm not sure what made you think I believe that Jews have any more capacity to change their minds about Palestinians than Palestinians about Jews. I also don't know why you think we should be destroying ideology of some Israelis (which would require killing them). I don't think we should be destroying ideology of Palestinians which would require killing them too. However their ideologies are in confrontation and one has behind it a local superpower with plenty of conventional forces and even some nuclear and the other has rockets made from repurposed water pipes, aviation that consists of paragliders, human shields that lives neither side respects or values and zero allies, even willing to do as little as accepting civilian refugees. It's clear which ideology will get broken or eradicated, along with the people subscribing to it, if they are stubborn enough. You seem to make some arguments about morality and symmetry. There's no symmetry because force vastly differs and morality is an afterthough. Where morality solidifies it is history. And the history is written by the victors.
    - aprilthird2021 3y ago
      I am making those arguments because your response to a comment saying "You cannot destroy the ideology of Hamas through military means" was not "Yes you can, force vastly differs in this conflict and morality is an afterthought". Your response was instead about how cruel Palestinian civilians are and how much they celebrate the deaths of Israelis. Anyone who read your original response would think you are saying "Gazans don't deserve to have their minds changed becasue they are evil in a way other enemies are not evil to each other" (you even included European reactions to the Moscow attack, cleverly forgetting Russia has not besieged and wholly blockaded any Europeans for multiple generations). So I also made that assumption

bushbaba 3y ago

That 30k includes over 10k militants.

outop 3y ago
[flagged]

lupire 3y ago

You are assuming without evidence that "ideology" is what the Israeli government and military are trying to eradicate. Instead of assuming people are incompetent, consider that you might be misapprehending their goals.

scotty79 3y ago

> Instead of using the hostage situation as an opportunity to change Gazan's mind about Hamas How would that suppose to happen if the civilians celebrated en masse the great success of killing and harming the Jews? Civilians in Gaza have zero sympathy for the Jews. Why would they change their minds when every cruelty against any Jew is a cause for applause for them? Compare this to the reaction of the West towards the terrorist attack in Moscow. Many Europeans expressed compassion. Would you think relationship between Russia and the West was salvageable if the entire Europe cheered on the streets because some Russians died?

aprilthird2021 3y ago
> Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza > People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer... Please let me know when we will completely destroy the ideology of Israelis who applaud every cruelty against Palestinians
- scotty79 3y ago
  I'm not sure what made you think I believe that Jews have any more capacity to change their minds about Palestinians than Palestinians about Jews. I also don't know why you think we should be destroying ideology of some Israelis (which would require killing them). I don't think we should be destroying ideology of Palestinians which would require killing them too. However their ideologies are in confrontation and one has behind it a local superpower with plenty of conventional forces and even some nuclear and the other has rockets made from repurposed water pipes, aviation that consists of paragliders, human shields that lives neither side respects or values and zero allies, even willing to do as little as accepting civilian refugees. It's clear which ideology will get broken or eradicated, along with the people subscribing to it, if they are stubborn enough. You seem to make some arguments about morality and symmetry. There's no symmetry because force vastly differs and morality is an afterthough. Where morality solidifies it is history. And the history is written by the victors.
  - aprilthird2021 3y ago
    I am making those arguments because your response to a comment saying "You cannot destroy the ideology of Hamas through military means" was not "Yes you can, force vastly differs in this conflict and morality is an afterthought". Your response was instead about how cruel Palestinian civilians are and how much they celebrate the deaths of Israelis. Anyone who read your original response would think you are saying "Gazans don't deserve to have their minds changed becasue they are evil in a way other enemies are not evil to each other" (you even included European reactions to the Moscow attack, cleverly forgetting Russia has not besieged and wholly blockaded any Europeans for multiple generations). So I also made that assumption