6 ms·

$32k/yr is an absolutely fucking insanely low salary for a high school teacher. I am so embarrassed for our country's educational system

winter-day 3y ago
As a parent, I'm equally ashamed. We're probably moving our family to europe/dubai in the next decade. The quality of my wife and my education abroad was substantially better than what we've experienced in "blue ribbon schools" in california.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  I don't know how one can put Dubai in that sentence.
  - emestifs 3y ago
    I've seen something similar recently online, someone talking about wanting to visit a certain adjacent middle eastern country for a holiday, one with a fairly notorious public image in other regards. I'm assuming the advertising those countries are pushing play a big part in the mind share of people.
  - Gud 3y ago
    Dubai has excellent schools.
    - Brian_K_White 3y ago
      Hey everyone! Dubai has excellent schools! Do not look any further into it, there are no other reasons one might not want to bring their family there or live there onesself. Probably clean streets too.
      - Gud 3y ago
        What's up with the snark? There are many reasons why one wouldn't want to live in Dubai. I was stationed in Dubai for work for two years, I know the place very well. Overall, I would say Dubai is very different than how it is portrayed in western media. Personally I find it amazing how much the place has grown in such a short time span. But I have chosen to live in Switzerland(not my native country), a country more aligned with my personal values. Freedom for the individual, a strong democracy, a diverse culture, with people who genuinely care about the planet and their neighborhood. But I do think a person grows when they are forced to live in cultures very different from their own.
- margorczynski 3y ago
  I'm sure your wife and daughter(s), if you have any, will certainly love Dubai and the UAE in general. And Europe has its own set of problems, it's a good idea to look at it without rose tinted glasses.
  - andrew_gs 3y ago
    My sister has lived in Dubai for about a decade and just had her daughter there. Some of the best IVF facilities in the world are in Dubai btw. Dubai has changed a lot over the past 20 years. As a kid I lived in Qatar and Oman in the 80s (born in Scotland but my dad worked in oil and gas), so I have experience with gulf states of the sort maybe you're thinking of in your mind. Yes - those places were often not great places to be a woman. But 2024 Dubai is a much different place. I visited my sister in 2022 when I had to travel to Abu Dhabi for work, and for the first time Dubai seemed like a place where I could imagine living on a long term basis.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
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_heimdall 3y ago
The disconnect between what individuals actually think and what we do collectively is ridiculous. This isn't limited to education or salaries, from helping veterans in need to reducing our impact on the planet our collective actions very rarely match the opinions a majority strongly share.
moomoo11 3y ago
It seems low if you’re from a HCOL like Bay Area but the guy is from KY which is a fairly low cost of living state. I took a look at realtor.com and homes there and in surrounding areas are like 200k to 400k. In Bay Area homes are like 1.5 million plus. And unlike LCOL areas the prices here will continue to go up. I grew up in Midwest. It’s quite cheap to live there. Homes where I grew up still cost like 200k.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  I’d rather be broke in LA than move back to the Midwest though. I’m glad others enjoy it, however.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - moomoo11 3y ago
    100%. I feel so much energy in California compared to anywhere else I’ve been.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  It's still incredibly low pay, even in LCOL area, for what is (and should be treated more like) an important job. Houses also cost 200k-400k around me, and you can make more money than that working nearly any job.
roenxi 3y ago
It is worth unpacking that response a bit. $32k/yr is a signal that if someone has a choice between doing teaching and something else they should pick the something else. Which accounts for why and what Vogel did. That isn't a bad thing; there is some ideal number of teachers and it isn't good for everyone to be trying to become one if there are already too many.
- rileymat2 3y ago
  There are other possibilities, for instance a disconnect between need and a willingness to pay to fill that need that is not economic in nature but political.
- acchow 3y ago
  > if there are already too many. The increasing of class sizes refutes the claim that low teacher pay is due to too much supply of teachers.
  - wakawaka28 3y ago
    Public school teacher salaries do not usually adapt to market conditions on an individual basis like in other industries. If you needed to pay like $5k more to get a new hire, for example, you would have to update the pay schedule to pay potentially thousands of teachers each $5k more. That cost can be infeasible in the short term. There are also non-monetary considerations. If your city is known for terrible working conditions, teachers might refuse those jobs even if your pay scale is competitive.
- ismokedoinks 3y ago
  I'm going to take the opposite view and say paying teachers 32k is a bad thing--here's an article from an hour ago saying that 90% of Illinois schools have a teacher shortage tied directly to low pay. Clearly this salary isn't signaling that the market is saturated with teachers. Setting aside the merits of teaching and childcare on their own, failing to fill teaching positions now in favor of other jobs is going to lead to students who are unprepared to continue to fill said jobs in the future. https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/illinois-teacher-shortages/ https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/illinois-teacher-shorta...
DonnieP 3y ago
Just about any US state legislature today with a Republican supermajority (such as Kentucky) prioritizes diversion of state and local education funds from public schools to private ones through the use of vouchers and charter schools. "Propping up" public schools is seen as a waste of taxpayer money. (I'm stating their position, not advocating it). Having said that, comparing public school teacher salaries to just about any other career outside government is highly misleading due to defined benefit pension plans, which in Kentucky include a health insurance benefit, and kick in fully without a retirement age requirement after only 27 years' service.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Jeff Landry in Louisiana said that the universities should produce “skilled labor” rather than research with the implication that all the people who had the nous to start a business in this state have already done so.

winter-day 3y ago

As a parent, I'm equally ashamed. We're probably moving our family to europe/dubai in the next decade. The quality of my wife and my education abroad was substantially better than what we've experienced in "blue ribbon schools" in california.

Brian_K_White 3y ago
I don't know how one can put Dubai in that sentence.
- emestifs 3y ago
  I've seen something similar recently online, someone talking about wanting to visit a certain adjacent middle eastern country for a holiday, one with a fairly notorious public image in other regards. I'm assuming the advertising those countries are pushing play a big part in the mind share of people.
- Gud 3y ago
  Dubai has excellent schools.
  - Brian_K_White 3y ago
    Hey everyone! Dubai has excellent schools! Do not look any further into it, there are no other reasons one might not want to bring their family there or live there onesself. Probably clean streets too.
    - Gud 3y ago
      What's up with the snark? There are many reasons why one wouldn't want to live in Dubai. I was stationed in Dubai for work for two years, I know the place very well. Overall, I would say Dubai is very different than how it is portrayed in western media. Personally I find it amazing how much the place has grown in such a short time span. But I have chosen to live in Switzerland(not my native country), a country more aligned with my personal values. Freedom for the individual, a strong democracy, a diverse culture, with people who genuinely care about the planet and their neighborhood. But I do think a person grows when they are forced to live in cultures very different from their own.
margorczynski 3y ago
I'm sure your wife and daughter(s), if you have any, will certainly love Dubai and the UAE in general. And Europe has its own set of problems, it's a good idea to look at it without rose tinted glasses.
- andrew_gs 3y ago
  My sister has lived in Dubai for about a decade and just had her daughter there. Some of the best IVF facilities in the world are in Dubai btw. Dubai has changed a lot over the past 20 years. As a kid I lived in Qatar and Oman in the 80s (born in Scotland but my dad worked in oil and gas), so I have experience with gulf states of the sort maybe you're thinking of in your mind. Yes - those places were often not great places to be a woman. But 2024 Dubai is a much different place. I visited my sister in 2022 when I had to travel to Abu Dhabi for work, and for the first time Dubai seemed like a place where I could imagine living on a long term basis.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

_heimdall 3y ago

The disconnect between what individuals actually think and what we do collectively is ridiculous. This isn't limited to education or salaries, from helping veterans in need to reducing our impact on the planet our collective actions very rarely match the opinions a majority strongly share.

moomoo11 3y ago

It seems low if you’re from a HCOL like Bay Area but the guy is from KY which is a fairly low cost of living state. I took a look at realtor.com and homes there and in surrounding areas are like 200k to 400k. In Bay Area homes are like 1.5 million plus. And unlike LCOL areas the prices here will continue to go up. I grew up in Midwest. It’s quite cheap to live there. Homes where I grew up still cost like 200k.

throwaway5959 3y ago
I’d rather be broke in LA than move back to the Midwest though. I’m glad others enjoy it, however.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- moomoo11 3y ago
  100%. I feel so much energy in California compared to anywhere else I’ve been.
xboxnolifes 3y ago
It's still incredibly low pay, even in LCOL area, for what is (and should be treated more like) an important job. Houses also cost 200k-400k around me, and you can make more money than that working nearly any job.

roenxi 3y ago

It is worth unpacking that response a bit. $32k/yr is a signal that if someone has a choice between doing teaching and something else they should pick the something else. Which accounts for why and what Vogel did. That isn't a bad thing; there is some ideal number of teachers and it isn't good for everyone to be trying to become one if there are already too many.

rileymat2 3y ago
There are other possibilities, for instance a disconnect between need and a willingness to pay to fill that need that is not economic in nature but political.
acchow 3y ago
> if there are already too many. The increasing of class sizes refutes the claim that low teacher pay is due to too much supply of teachers.
- wakawaka28 3y ago
  Public school teacher salaries do not usually adapt to market conditions on an individual basis like in other industries. If you needed to pay like $5k more to get a new hire, for example, you would have to update the pay schedule to pay potentially thousands of teachers each $5k more. That cost can be infeasible in the short term. There are also non-monetary considerations. If your city is known for terrible working conditions, teachers might refuse those jobs even if your pay scale is competitive.
ismokedoinks 3y ago
I'm going to take the opposite view and say paying teachers 32k is a bad thing--here's an article from an hour ago saying that 90% of Illinois schools have a teacher shortage tied directly to low pay. Clearly this salary isn't signaling that the market is saturated with teachers. Setting aside the merits of teaching and childcare on their own, failing to fill teaching positions now in favor of other jobs is going to lead to students who are unprepared to continue to fill said jobs in the future. https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/illinois-teacher-shortages/ https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/illinois-teacher-shorta...

DonnieP 3y ago

Just about any US state legislature today with a Republican supermajority (such as Kentucky) prioritizes diversion of state and local education funds from public schools to private ones through the use of vouchers and charter schools. "Propping up" public schools is seen as a waste of taxpayer money. (I'm stating their position, not advocating it). Having said that, comparing public school teacher salaries to just about any other career outside government is highly misleading due to defined benefit pension plans, which in Kentucky include a health insurance benefit, and kick in fully without a retirement age requirement after only 27 years' service.

selimthegrim 3y ago
Jeff Landry in Louisiana said that the universities should produce “skilled labor” rather than research with the implication that all the people who had the nous to start a business in this state have already done so.