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> A macOS version is cheating. That I can use... but it's not the standard Emacs UI. There is no such thing as a single standard UI. In addition to the termina

by _19qg 3y ago

> A macOS version is cheating. That I can use... but it's not the standard Emacs UI. There is no such thing as a single standard UI. In addition to the terminal version, GNU Emacs was ported to window systems loooooooong time ago. It's perfectly normal to use them. I use the GTK version of GNU Emacs on Linux.

lproven 3y ago
> There is no such thing as a single standard UI Yes, there is, and it is called CUA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access I learned about 20 different text editors before CUA came along. I refuse to learn any new ones unless they comply with CUA. I write English, not code. Any one of dozens of CUA editors are perfectly fine and adequate for my needs. > GNU Emacs was ported to window systems loooooooong time ago. So its programmers have had decades to adapt it so that it conforms to the standards set in the 1980s and adopted by the entire computer industry, from Apple to Xerox. If they can't be bothered to adapt it, I can't be bothered to learn their ugly pre-standardisation UI. Some examples: a document is held in a window which can be split into panes to see more than one at a time. Those are the terms. Use them, or GTFO. The keystrokes for file operations are always Ctrl + the first letter of the relevant English verb, e.g. Ctrl+O is Open, Ctrl+P is Print. The Control key is abbreviated Ctrl and nothing else. The key next to Ctrl is called Alternate, abbreviated Alt. It is not called anything else on PC systems, although Macs call it Option, abbreviated Opt. It is not called "Meta" and no hardware made in 40 years called it that. The software was ported to the hardware; now port its manual and its UI, or GTFO. Incidentally, a second danger of using the wrong name is that because it's wrong, different teams use it for different things. The KDE team call the Super key "Meta". https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/khelpcenter/fundamentals/kbd.html https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/khelpcenter/fundamentals/kbd... They are wrong, too. Ctrl, Alt, Win/Super. Deal with it. The world changes. Software must adapt.
- lispm 3y ago
  Basically nothing of that applies to my main devices: Macs, iPads, iPhones. None of those use CUA (-> the Apple UI guidelines for those are either older (Mac) or newer), keystroke for file applications don't use control, there are no win/super keys, there are no multiple documents using window "panes" (as you can see in any of Apple's applications, for example Apple Terminal uses Tabs, not panes), ... See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts Ugly...
  - lproven 3y ago
    It applies to Macs, yes, and more than you'd think. OS X adopted more CUA stuff than Classic had... whereas the design of CUA inherited a large amount from Classic MacOS and modified it both to add more key controls, and to avoid a look-and-feel lawsuit like the one that crippled PC GEM. Command is Super. Came key, same scancode, etc. Just a different name. Very broadly, if one remaps the bottom left keyboard key on a Mac to Cmd, and the Super key to Ctrl, then CUA control keys all Just Work™ on Mac OS X. This is in fact how I normally use Macs when using a PC keyboard on them. So, no, I disagree on all points. (I don't really care about the phones. I don't own them or use them.) I've spent considerable time over decades studying this and I disagree with every point here.
    - lispm 3y ago
      Classic is long dead. OS X does not exist anymore. It's now called macOS and the UI is merging with iOS and iPadOS user interfaces for some time now, because that's where many new users are coming from. Even for Microsoft: many users will now use something like the Microsoft Office suite in a web browser. Take the current "Apple Pages" text editor / layout program. https://www.apple.com/pages/ https://www.apple.com/pages/ It does not look and feel a bit like CUA. Not 10% of the UI works like in Microsoft Word... For our entertainment: On my MacBook Pro keyboard I mapped the Lisp Machine keys: control = control, meta = option, symbol = command, right super = right command, right hyper = right option So I get from left to right: control, meta, option, super, hyper. I use it, even though it is not CUA compatible. :-)
      - CRConrad 2y ago
        > OS X does not exist anymore. It's now called macOS So then it does exist. Otherwise it wouldn't be called anything any more.
- nequo 3y ago
  Emacs has had CUA mode since 2007. You can activate it without writing any Lisp, with two clicks through the menu system: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CuaMode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CuaMode
  - lproven 3y ago
    I've tried it. It's useless. It changes a handful of trivial keystrokes and nothing else. It's like bolting pedals on the sides of a huge car and saying "Look -- it's a bicycle now!" CUA compliance needs a total rewrite of the UI and the manuals and the tutorial. Fortunately, much of it has been done, but it's still incomplete and it's hard for non-Emacs-users to get working. But it's here: https://ergoemacs.github.io/ https://ergoemacs.github.io/

by _19qg 3y ago

lproven 3y ago

> There is no such thing as a single standard UI Yes, there is, and it is called CUA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access I learned about 20 different text editors before CUA came along. I refuse to learn any new ones unless they comply with CUA. I write English, not code. Any one of dozens of CUA editors are perfectly fine and adequate for my needs. > GNU Emacs was ported to window systems loooooooong time ago. So its programmers have had decades to adapt it so that it conforms to the standards set in the 1980s and adopted by the entire computer industry, from Apple to Xerox. If they can't be bothered to adapt it, I can't be bothered to learn their ugly pre-standardisation UI. Some examples: a document is held in a window which can be split into panes to see more than one at a time. Those are the terms. Use them, or GTFO. The keystrokes for file operations are always Ctrl + the first letter of the relevant English verb, e.g. Ctrl+O is Open, Ctrl+P is Print. The Control key is abbreviated Ctrl and nothing else. The key next to Ctrl is called Alternate, abbreviated Alt. It is not called anything else on PC systems, although Macs call it Option, abbreviated Opt. It is not called "Meta" and no hardware made in 40 years called it that. The software was ported to the hardware; now port its manual and its UI, or GTFO. Incidentally, a second danger of using the wrong name is that because it's wrong, different teams use it for different things. The KDE team call the Super key "Meta". https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/khelpcenter/fundamentals/kbd.html https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/khelpcenter/fundamentals/kbd... They are wrong, too. Ctrl, Alt, Win/Super. Deal with it. The world changes. Software must adapt.

lispm 3y ago
Basically nothing of that applies to my main devices: Macs, iPads, iPhones. None of those use CUA (-> the Apple UI guidelines for those are either older (Mac) or newer), keystroke for file applications don't use control, there are no win/super keys, there are no multiple documents using window "panes" (as you can see in any of Apple's applications, for example Apple Terminal uses Tabs, not panes), ... See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts Ugly...
- lproven 3y ago
  It applies to Macs, yes, and more than you'd think. OS X adopted more CUA stuff than Classic had... whereas the design of CUA inherited a large amount from Classic MacOS and modified it both to add more key controls, and to avoid a look-and-feel lawsuit like the one that crippled PC GEM. Command is Super. Came key, same scancode, etc. Just a different name. Very broadly, if one remaps the bottom left keyboard key on a Mac to Cmd, and the Super key to Ctrl, then CUA control keys all Just Work™ on Mac OS X. This is in fact how I normally use Macs when using a PC keyboard on them. So, no, I disagree on all points. (I don't really care about the phones. I don't own them or use them.) I've spent considerable time over decades studying this and I disagree with every point here.
  - lispm 3y ago
    Classic is long dead. OS X does not exist anymore. It's now called macOS and the UI is merging with iOS and iPadOS user interfaces for some time now, because that's where many new users are coming from. Even for Microsoft: many users will now use something like the Microsoft Office suite in a web browser. Take the current "Apple Pages" text editor / layout program. https://www.apple.com/pages/ https://www.apple.com/pages/ It does not look and feel a bit like CUA. Not 10% of the UI works like in Microsoft Word... For our entertainment: On my MacBook Pro keyboard I mapped the Lisp Machine keys: control = control, meta = option, symbol = command, right super = right command, right hyper = right option So I get from left to right: control, meta, option, super, hyper. I use it, even though it is not CUA compatible. :-)
    - CRConrad 2y ago
      > OS X does not exist anymore. It's now called macOS So then it does exist. Otherwise it wouldn't be called anything any more.
nequo 3y ago
Emacs has had CUA mode since 2007. You can activate it without writing any Lisp, with two clicks through the menu system: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CuaMode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CuaMode
- lproven 3y ago
  I've tried it. It's useless. It changes a handful of trivial keystrokes and nothing else. It's like bolting pedals on the sides of a huge car and saying "Look -- it's a bicycle now!" CUA compliance needs a total rewrite of the UI and the manuals and the tutorial. Fortunately, much of it has been done, but it's still incomplete and it's hard for non-Emacs-users to get working. But it's here: https://ergoemacs.github.io/ https://ergoemacs.github.io/