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> congestion, noise These aren't problems, these are features. Manhatten is not a place to go for quiet, empty spaces, except maybe Central Park. You're there

> congestion, noise These aren't problems, these are features. Manhatten is not a place to go for quiet, empty spaces, except maybe Central Park. You're there for energy, movement, lots of action. Who wants a peaceful, empty Manhatten??

acdha 3y ago
You’re not there for any of those things from cars. The energy and movement people visit Manhattan for are from other people – if they wanted car noise, they’d be out at a racetrack.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > You’re not there for any of those things from cars. I don't know how you can say that (other than your personal preference). The cars have been there, doing those things, for generations. They are quieter and pollute less now. Are they trying to turn NY into Long Island? Keep the things that make NY unique and special - people obviously love it.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Cars do pollute less but are still a major hazard and quality of life reduction. If you ask people why they come to NYC, nobody says it’s to listen to people honk at each other or almost get run over in the crosswalk by an Uber driver. People may say that they accept the background car noise as a cost of living in the city but nobody sees it as a positive.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Pretty definitive statements, but what are they based on?
      - acdha 3y ago
        Let’s start with your survey results showing that people like Manhattan for the car noise. Please link to your data and methodology. My support is based on both the real health costs and direct injuries/fatalities - see e.g. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/abf60b https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/abf60b – and the fact that if people loved the pollution so much there wouldn’t be an entire political movement to reduce it. Beyond the topic of this thread, they’ve also had a variety of laws to punish noisy vehicles and reduce traffic: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/07/06/opinion-loud-driving-threatens-our-health https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/07/06/opinion-loud-driving-...
  - Clamchop 3y ago
    I don't know how you can say that (other than your personal preference).
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Decades of evidence, as I said.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    > I don't know how you can say that (other than your personal preference) Pretty sure if I went to everyone I know who lives in NYC and asked them if they'd prefer less car noise throughout the day and night, they would answer with an emphatic yes. I agree with you that car noise has been a part of NYC's backdrop for generations, but that doesn't make it a good thing, even for people who are accustomed to it. Cars still pollute plenty, especially in a dense place like Manhattan, and that pollution is a health hazard. It sounds like you'd complain if eventually everyone in NYC started driving EVs, because it'd be too quiet for your taste. Weird.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > Pretty sure if I went to everyone I know who lives in NYC and asked them if they'd prefer less car noise throughout the day and night, they would answer with an emphatic yes. Unless the people you know are much different than the ones I know, the great majority would say they don't care, many would embrace the energy of the city, and no doubt some would agree. (Of course, it depends on how you frame the question - 'do you want less car noise?', and 'do you want NY to be quiet like the suburbs?' would get different responses.)
occz 3y ago
Whoever took a look at your average day in Manhattan and proclaimed: "Thank god there are so many cars and so much traffic noise here!"? The answer is no one. No one ever wanted any of these features.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Millions of people are willing to spend a lot of money to be there.
  - occz 3y ago
    Because of, or in spite of? Consider the following: if everything else stayed the same, but all traffic was removed from Manhattan, would there be a net increase or decrease in population from migration?
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      It's very speculative, but I'd say a decrease because people couldn't get things done that require driving or are easier to do that way.

acdha 3y ago

You’re not there for any of those things from cars. The energy and movement people visit Manhattan for are from other people – if they wanted car noise, they’d be out at a racetrack.

wolverine876 3y ago
> You’re not there for any of those things from cars. I don't know how you can say that (other than your personal preference). The cars have been there, doing those things, for generations. They are quieter and pollute less now. Are they trying to turn NY into Long Island? Keep the things that make NY unique and special - people obviously love it.
- acdha 3y ago
  Cars do pollute less but are still a major hazard and quality of life reduction. If you ask people why they come to NYC, nobody says it’s to listen to people honk at each other or almost get run over in the crosswalk by an Uber driver. People may say that they accept the background car noise as a cost of living in the city but nobody sees it as a positive.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Pretty definitive statements, but what are they based on?
    - acdha 3y ago
      Let’s start with your survey results showing that people like Manhattan for the car noise. Please link to your data and methodology. My support is based on both the real health costs and direct injuries/fatalities - see e.g. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/abf60b https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/abf60b – and the fact that if people loved the pollution so much there wouldn’t be an entire political movement to reduce it. Beyond the topic of this thread, they’ve also had a variety of laws to punish noisy vehicles and reduce traffic: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/07/06/opinion-loud-driving-threatens-our-health https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/07/06/opinion-loud-driving-...
- Clamchop 3y ago
  I don't know how you can say that (other than your personal preference).
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Decades of evidence, as I said.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > I don't know how you can say that (other than your personal preference) Pretty sure if I went to everyone I know who lives in NYC and asked them if they'd prefer less car noise throughout the day and night, they would answer with an emphatic yes. I agree with you that car noise has been a part of NYC's backdrop for generations, but that doesn't make it a good thing, even for people who are accustomed to it. Cars still pollute plenty, especially in a dense place like Manhattan, and that pollution is a health hazard. It sounds like you'd complain if eventually everyone in NYC started driving EVs, because it'd be too quiet for your taste. Weird.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Pretty sure if I went to everyone I know who lives in NYC and asked them if they'd prefer less car noise throughout the day and night, they would answer with an emphatic yes. Unless the people you know are much different than the ones I know, the great majority would say they don't care, many would embrace the energy of the city, and no doubt some would agree. (Of course, it depends on how you frame the question - 'do you want less car noise?', and 'do you want NY to be quiet like the suburbs?' would get different responses.)

occz 3y ago

Whoever took a look at your average day in Manhattan and proclaimed: "Thank god there are so many cars and so much traffic noise here!"? The answer is no one. No one ever wanted any of these features.

wolverine876 3y ago
Millions of people are willing to spend a lot of money to be there.
- occz 3y ago
  Because of, or in spite of? Consider the following: if everything else stayed the same, but all traffic was removed from Manhattan, would there be a net increase or decrease in population from migration?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    It's very speculative, but I'd say a decrease because people couldn't get things done that require driving or are easier to do that way.