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But shouldn't pollution and noise be pretty much solved in the foreseeable future, I suppose, with EVs on the rise? And congestion I find an interesting one. W

by kleiba 3y ago

But shouldn't pollution and noise be pretty much solved in the foreseeable future, I suppose, with EVs on the rise? And congestion I find an interesting one. Where I live, the city planners are trying to make it as hard as possible for people driving into the city, the idea being that people will just give up if driving even to a parking lot close to the city center sucks too much. However, it has always made me wonder: doesn't this strategy add to the congestion? Like, what if you made it instead super easy and fast to get to a parking spot - then your car would be off the road much faster and you'd produce less congestion, less noise, and less pollution.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> But shouldn't pollution and noise be pretty much solved in the foreseeable future, I suppose, with EVs on the rise? The loudest noise is tire noise.
- rbetts 3y ago
  In NYC, I'm pretty sure it is the horn (and the siren) ;-)
- pgodzin 3y ago
  Tire wear also contributes the most to PM2.5 pollution, and EVs are heavier and produce more wear
  - kleiba 3y ago
    Interesting. Do you have a source to back up the part about EVs?
    - Solvency 3y ago
      You need a source to tell you EVs are heavier? This is a basic fact.
      - programjames 3y ago
        > This is a basic fact. Clearly they don't want a source, it's just malicious ignorance. After all, if they really wanted to know it'd be far easier to click the "plus" button on their browser and ask DuckDuckGo.
        kleiba 3y ago
        Funny that you should mention that, because the first hit I get when I type "EVs PM2.5 pollution" into my search engine is a Science Direct article that contains the following quote: "Findings demonstrate that EV adoption can significantly alleviate PM2.5 pollution." Not that I am one to blindly believe whatever happens to show up at the top of my search results, but it shows the ridiculousness of your argument about how easy it is to just do a web search. So I'd recommend for next time, keep your clairvoyance to yourself (because I "clearly" did want a source) and while your add it, perhaps also your offences ("malicious ignorance").
    - gdelfino01 3y ago
      https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-losing-tread https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-los...
- kcb 3y ago
  The real loudest noise at city speeds is mostly jerks with modified exhaust or occasionally a large diesel truck.
  - kleiba 3y ago
    If that is true then I doubt that this new fee will solve the noise problem.
  - rodgerd 3y ago
    Good news! Dodge are catering to that demographic with "the "Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust," which combines chambers and speakers under the car, plus some actual pipes" for all their anti-social needs.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- baron816 3y ago
  This is generally the case in most cities, but less so at lower Manhattan speeds. Large diesel trucks produce a lot of pollution and noise. But those will take longer to electrify.
leptons 3y ago
Noise will be about the same, it's the people honking their horns at traffic that are the real noise problem. But with a toll there will be less cars and then less horns honked.
- kleiba 3y ago
  Interesting. It's been so long that I visited Manhattan that I have no recollection of the soundscape, but the city where I live is much, much smaller. There is basically no honking here.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    Honking is moderate. The biggest source of noise is ambulance / fire / occasionally police sirens. Sometimes it's also the occasional car with a kilowatt music system blaring at full power. This is regular streets; expressways are noisier but few.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      In my experience the biggest source of noise is homeless people cosplaying as roosters, maybe I just got unlucky with my apartment location though. Police sirens only last a couple seconds because of the burst setup theyve got.
      - nine_k 3y ago
        Must be an unfortunate location. From my many years of experience, this is really rare; NYC seems to have relatively few homeless folks, and most I ever met were quiet. Regarding location, check the prices in hotels right on the Times Square; they used to be lower than in similar hotels a few blocks away. Times Squae can get really noisy, and stays bustling 24/7. Tourists value some quiet %)
    - leptons 3y ago
      Agree on the siren noise. Last time I stayed in NYC for a week, the sirens were constant. There was horn honking too, but the sirens were loud and frequent.
acdha 3y ago
EVs don’t have tailpipe emission but they have tire and brake dust (worse, due to the average weight) and make tire and wind noise, not to mention having horns. From a climate change perspective, less CO2 is better but for things like heart disease, asthma, stress as well as water pollution they’re not much of an improvement.
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  > have tire and brake dust (worse, due to the average weight) this isn't really true. EV brakes barely get any use because of regenerative breaking, and EV tires tend to be stiffer which mostly evens out the tires.
  - acdha 3y ago
    People who’ve studied it disagree: > Assuming lightweight EVs (i.e. with battery packs enabling a driving range of about 100 miles), the report finds that EVs emit an estimated 11-13% less non-exhaust PM2.5 and 18-19% less PM10 than ICEVs. Assuming that EV models are heavier (with battery packs enabling a driving range of 300 miles or higher), however, the report finds that they reduce PM10 by only 4-7% and increase PM2.5 by 3-8% relative to conventional vehicles. Additional simulations indicate that the uptake of electric vehicles will lead to very marginal decreases in total PM emissions from road traffic in future years. In scenarios where electric vehicles comprise 4% and 8% of the vehicle stock in 2030, their penetration reduces PM emissions by 0.3%-0.8% relative to current levels. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/env-2020-311-en/index.html https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/env-2020-311-en/index.ht...
    - brandonagr2 3y ago
      And by studied you mean come up with synthetic / theoretical models that are not verified against reality? Ignoring actual tailpipe emissions and focusing on large PM10 particles like dust kicked up from the road is not a serious evaluation of the benefits of EVs vs combustion engines
      - 3y ago
aqme28 3y ago
Parking takes up a lot of space, and space is obviously at a premium in downtown Manhattan.
danielhep 3y ago
I don't think you've received a good reply to the congestion part of your comment. The most poorly understood urban planning concept by the general public is the idea of induced demand. Usually this is applied to freeway expansion, which inevitably ends up being just as congested as pre expansion. However, induced demand can just as easily be applied to parking lots. Especially in NYC area, very few people who drive and park don't have an alternative. Those people only have so much tolerance for looking for parking, so limiting parking will push people on the margin to transit. For the individual, driving will almost always be the best choice if you build endless parking and highways. But, it's not necessarily better for the collective to allocate our land and resources like that. Parking lots aren't free. In fact, they require a huge amount of space. You can fit more people in an apartment building with that space!

by kleiba 3y ago

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> But shouldn't pollution and noise be pretty much solved in the foreseeable future, I suppose, with EVs on the rise? The loudest noise is tire noise.

rbetts 3y ago
In NYC, I'm pretty sure it is the horn (and the siren) ;-)
pgodzin 3y ago
Tire wear also contributes the most to PM2.5 pollution, and EVs are heavier and produce more wear
- kleiba 3y ago
  Interesting. Do you have a source to back up the part about EVs?
  - Solvency 3y ago
    You need a source to tell you EVs are heavier? This is a basic fact.
    - programjames 3y ago
      > This is a basic fact. Clearly they don't want a source, it's just malicious ignorance. After all, if they really wanted to know it'd be far easier to click the "plus" button on their browser and ask DuckDuckGo.
      - kleiba 3y ago
        Funny that you should mention that, because the first hit I get when I type "EVs PM2.5 pollution" into my search engine is a Science Direct article that contains the following quote: "Findings demonstrate that EV adoption can significantly alleviate PM2.5 pollution." Not that I am one to blindly believe whatever happens to show up at the top of my search results, but it shows the ridiculousness of your argument about how easy it is to just do a web search. So I'd recommend for next time, keep your clairvoyance to yourself (because I "clearly" did want a source) and while your add it, perhaps also your offences ("malicious ignorance").
  - gdelfino01 3y ago
    https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-losing-tread https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-los...
kcb 3y ago
The real loudest noise at city speeds is mostly jerks with modified exhaust or occasionally a large diesel truck.
- kleiba 3y ago
  If that is true then I doubt that this new fee will solve the noise problem.
- rodgerd 3y ago
  Good news! Dodge are catering to that demographic with "the "Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust," which combines chambers and speakers under the car, plus some actual pipes" for all their anti-social needs.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
baron816 3y ago
This is generally the case in most cities, but less so at lower Manhattan speeds. Large diesel trucks produce a lot of pollution and noise. But those will take longer to electrify.

leptons 3y ago

Noise will be about the same, it's the people honking their horns at traffic that are the real noise problem. But with a toll there will be less cars and then less horns honked.

kleiba 3y ago
Interesting. It's been so long that I visited Manhattan that I have no recollection of the soundscape, but the city where I live is much, much smaller. There is basically no honking here.
- nine_k 3y ago
  Honking is moderate. The biggest source of noise is ambulance / fire / occasionally police sirens. Sometimes it's also the occasional car with a kilowatt music system blaring at full power. This is regular streets; expressways are noisier but few.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    In my experience the biggest source of noise is homeless people cosplaying as roosters, maybe I just got unlucky with my apartment location though. Police sirens only last a couple seconds because of the burst setup theyve got.
    - nine_k 3y ago
      Must be an unfortunate location. From my many years of experience, this is really rare; NYC seems to have relatively few homeless folks, and most I ever met were quiet. Regarding location, check the prices in hotels right on the Times Square; they used to be lower than in similar hotels a few blocks away. Times Squae can get really noisy, and stays bustling 24/7. Tourists value some quiet %)
  - leptons 3y ago
    Agree on the siren noise. Last time I stayed in NYC for a week, the sirens were constant. There was horn honking too, but the sirens were loud and frequent.

acdha 3y ago

EVs don’t have tailpipe emission but they have tire and brake dust (worse, due to the average weight) and make tire and wind noise, not to mention having horns. From a climate change perspective, less CO2 is better but for things like heart disease, asthma, stress as well as water pollution they’re not much of an improvement.

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
> have tire and brake dust (worse, due to the average weight) this isn't really true. EV brakes barely get any use because of regenerative breaking, and EV tires tend to be stiffer which mostly evens out the tires.
- acdha 3y ago
  People who’ve studied it disagree: > Assuming lightweight EVs (i.e. with battery packs enabling a driving range of about 100 miles), the report finds that EVs emit an estimated 11-13% less non-exhaust PM2.5 and 18-19% less PM10 than ICEVs. Assuming that EV models are heavier (with battery packs enabling a driving range of 300 miles or higher), however, the report finds that they reduce PM10 by only 4-7% and increase PM2.5 by 3-8% relative to conventional vehicles. Additional simulations indicate that the uptake of electric vehicles will lead to very marginal decreases in total PM emissions from road traffic in future years. In scenarios where electric vehicles comprise 4% and 8% of the vehicle stock in 2030, their penetration reduces PM emissions by 0.3%-0.8% relative to current levels. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/env-2020-311-en/index.html https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/env-2020-311-en/index.ht...
  - brandonagr2 3y ago
    And by studied you mean come up with synthetic / theoretical models that are not verified against reality? Ignoring actual tailpipe emissions and focusing on large PM10 particles like dust kicked up from the road is not a serious evaluation of the benefits of EVs vs combustion engines
    - 3y ago

aqme28 3y ago

Parking takes up a lot of space, and space is obviously at a premium in downtown Manhattan.

danielhep 3y ago

I don't think you've received a good reply to the congestion part of your comment. The most poorly understood urban planning concept by the general public is the idea of induced demand. Usually this is applied to freeway expansion, which inevitably ends up being just as congested as pre expansion. However, induced demand can just as easily be applied to parking lots. Especially in NYC area, very few people who drive and park don't have an alternative. Those people only have so much tolerance for looking for parking, so limiting parking will push people on the margin to transit. For the individual, driving will almost always be the best choice if you build endless parking and highways. But, it's not necessarily better for the collective to allocate our land and resources like that. Parking lots aren't free. In fact, they require a huge amount of space. You can fit more people in an apartment building with that space!