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Not a parent, but I feel the same about myself. Having a kid at 22 would’ve been a mess to say the least. Looking back at that age halfway through my 30s, at th

Not a parent, but I feel the same about myself. Having a kid at 22 would’ve been a mess to say the least. Looking back at that age halfway through my 30s, at that point I wasn’t much more than an overgrown 16 year old that could legally walk into a bar who wouldn’t get his head screwed on quite right for another 6 years or so at minimum.

pixl97 3y ago
I think a potential problem (depending on ones point of view) is that when parents wait till they are responsible they tend to have one, maybe two kids, which is below replacement rate. When coupled with things like costs, you end up with a rapidly shrinking population.
- jwells89 3y ago
  Cost and support networks are both big factors here. 30-somethings are probably more likely to have replacement rate or more if it’s affordable to do so and there’s family/friends around to lend a hand, but few enjoy such circumstances. Things like remote work could’ve helped here, allowing couples to live near family instead of wherever the best employment prospects exist currently, but the RTO push prevented that.
  - tuatoru 3y ago
    The (lack of) social prestige for pregnancy and motherhood among UMC women is a bigger factor. Women have been indoctrinated to place career first and only. Try saying "soccer mom" with an admiring tone instead of a sneer if you want to understand this.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Is it possible women could want financial independence without being indoctrinated? Or are they incapable of desiring power over their own lives, perhaps unlike men?
      - carlosjobim 3y ago
        Of course a lot of people would like financial independence. Young working women (and men) of today normally have almost no financial independence, because they are indebted or renters. They have to work a salary job or be out on the streets. A stay at home mother in the past with a part time job had much more financial independence together with her husband than most working young people have today, even though they get fancy titles now. Basically the current elderly generation used indoctrination to turn their children into serfs in some kind of foolish attempt to end humanity. Also to remember is that traditionally in most cultures, the wife in the family controlled the household's finances.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        > Young working women (and men) of today normally have almost no financial independence, A greater proportion of women today have more financial independence than they have ever had in the past. > A stay at home mother in the past with a part time job had much more financial independence together with her husband This is financial dependence, not independence. > Basically the current elderly generation used indoctrination to turn their children into serfs in some kind of foolish attempt to end humanity. Nonsense. I imagine it is pretty insulting for a woman to read that they could only be capable of wanting control of their own lives if they were fooled into it. > Also to remember is that traditionally in most cultures, the wife in the family controlled the household's finances. Also nonsense. In almost every culture, for almost all of time, women did not have power over the family’s assets, much less the ability to earn enough to power a family. They were and are literally married off because they were liabilities. Inheritances passed down to sons instead of daughters. And umpteen other examples. This is ignoring that even with legal/social mechanisms that provide women equal access to power as men, biology throws them a curveball every month with the effects of menstruation cycles and the effects and risks of pregnancy/childbirth.
        carlosjobim 3y ago
        > This is financial dependence, not independence. Do you really think that somebody who owns their own house and has supplementary income is less independent than somebody who works full time and owns nothing? The first has the option to stop working, the second will be out on the streets if they do. > Nonsense. I imagine it is pretty insulting for a woman to read that they could only be capable of wanting control of their own lives if they were fooled into it. Both women and men, and yes, the indoctrination is massive to convince the young generations that they want to work full time at an extremely elevated productivity and still not afford to own their homes to have families. > Also nonsense. In almost every culture, for almost all of time, women did not have power over the family’s assets, much less the ability to earn enough to power a family. Then you are ignorant of history regarding this, which is your problem and not mine. I trust that you will deny this even if you read about it and find out. Just say "Nonsense!" and shut it out.
    - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
      The sneer of "soccer mom" isn't that she's a mother busy raising children. It's that she's too busy shuffling the kids between enrichment activities to take the downtime to be their mother. That and her children are her personality.
- em-bee 3y ago
  add that waiting longer also increases the replacement rate.
- gonzo41 3y ago
  Don't worry, there's plenty of irresponsible people out there still. And the planet is thankful for a bit of steady decline in population.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    The planet doesn’t care either way. The question is what’s best for the humans - and those things or beings that humans value.
em-bee 3y ago
the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and there was always someone nearby to help and to show us how things are done. oh, and going with the theme of the article, great-grandpa from my wifes side was still around, but my son does not remember him now. and as my dad was the youngest of 7 kids, i just barely remember his parents.
- rodgerd 3y ago
  > the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    This retort is true of literally everything involved in raising kids. Substitute "parents" "preschool teachers" "sports coach" &c. for "grandparents" in the sentence and it's still true for the domain for the children. It's true that with grandparents you have a maximum of 4 to choose from, but you might not have more than 4 preschools to choose from either.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Arguably you can chose other teachers and coaches and daycare
      - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
        What about crappy parents?
Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
Yeah, same here. I don't think I was mature enough to have a kid at 22, apart from the fact that I was still studying, and when I started working I had low salary and needed to work long hours to fight for job stability in a competitive sector. However, it would likely have worked at 30, and reading through all this makes me think that it would have been better than waiting until 36 as I did. Easier said (especially in retrospective) than done, though.
ein0p 3y ago
As someone who had his first kid at 23, you grow up real quick once you become a parent. Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. Or to really understand their own parents for that matter.
- ddsf 3y ago
  I often see people settled into being more financially responsible, and it's good. But not in term of personality maturity.
- doubled112 3y ago
  I was 24 and still in college. This thread is full of people saying "I was a mess" or "I wasn't mature enough". When we found out we were pregnant, I was working at a gas station, my off hours spent riding around in a truck with my friends yelling things at people walking by on the street for reactions. There's maturity and stability. Now I'm "ahead" of many of those friends because I knew I needed to hurry up and get things done. Didn't have time to rage quit jobs. Didn't have time to sit around and make less because it was easier. So I agree with you. It tells me a lot about being responsible and mature. Most won't until they have to, and a kid has that effect.
  - ein0p 3y ago
    What really cracks me up is that people have this expectation that they’ll ever be “ready” to have kids. Not going to happen. The whole thing reminds me of the first few minutes of “Idiocracy”.
- digging 3y ago
  > Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. This is my favorite of the lies parents tell, it's so obviously nonsensical
  - ein0p 3y ago
    I take it you don't have kids.

pixl97 3y ago

I think a potential problem (depending on ones point of view) is that when parents wait till they are responsible they tend to have one, maybe two kids, which is below replacement rate. When coupled with things like costs, you end up with a rapidly shrinking population.

jwells89 3y ago
Cost and support networks are both big factors here. 30-somethings are probably more likely to have replacement rate or more if it’s affordable to do so and there’s family/friends around to lend a hand, but few enjoy such circumstances. Things like remote work could’ve helped here, allowing couples to live near family instead of wherever the best employment prospects exist currently, but the RTO push prevented that.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  The (lack of) social prestige for pregnancy and motherhood among UMC women is a bigger factor. Women have been indoctrinated to place career first and only. Try saying "soccer mom" with an admiring tone instead of a sneer if you want to understand this.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Is it possible women could want financial independence without being indoctrinated? Or are they incapable of desiring power over their own lives, perhaps unlike men?
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      Of course a lot of people would like financial independence. Young working women (and men) of today normally have almost no financial independence, because they are indebted or renters. They have to work a salary job or be out on the streets. A stay at home mother in the past with a part time job had much more financial independence together with her husband than most working young people have today, even though they get fancy titles now. Basically the current elderly generation used indoctrination to turn their children into serfs in some kind of foolish attempt to end humanity. Also to remember is that traditionally in most cultures, the wife in the family controlled the household's finances.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        > Young working women (and men) of today normally have almost no financial independence, A greater proportion of women today have more financial independence than they have ever had in the past. > A stay at home mother in the past with a part time job had much more financial independence together with her husband This is financial dependence, not independence. > Basically the current elderly generation used indoctrination to turn their children into serfs in some kind of foolish attempt to end humanity. Nonsense. I imagine it is pretty insulting for a woman to read that they could only be capable of wanting control of their own lives if they were fooled into it. > Also to remember is that traditionally in most cultures, the wife in the family controlled the household's finances. Also nonsense. In almost every culture, for almost all of time, women did not have power over the family’s assets, much less the ability to earn enough to power a family. They were and are literally married off because they were liabilities. Inheritances passed down to sons instead of daughters. And umpteen other examples. This is ignoring that even with legal/social mechanisms that provide women equal access to power as men, biology throws them a curveball every month with the effects of menstruation cycles and the effects and risks of pregnancy/childbirth.
        carlosjobim 3y ago
        > This is financial dependence, not independence. Do you really think that somebody who owns their own house and has supplementary income is less independent than somebody who works full time and owns nothing? The first has the option to stop working, the second will be out on the streets if they do. > Nonsense. I imagine it is pretty insulting for a woman to read that they could only be capable of wanting control of their own lives if they were fooled into it. Both women and men, and yes, the indoctrination is massive to convince the young generations that they want to work full time at an extremely elevated productivity and still not afford to own their homes to have families. > Also nonsense. In almost every culture, for almost all of time, women did not have power over the family’s assets, much less the ability to earn enough to power a family. Then you are ignorant of history regarding this, which is your problem and not mine. I trust that you will deny this even if you read about it and find out. Just say "Nonsense!" and shut it out.
  - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
    The sneer of "soccer mom" isn't that she's a mother busy raising children. It's that she's too busy shuffling the kids between enrichment activities to take the downtime to be their mother. That and her children are her personality.
em-bee 3y ago
add that waiting longer also increases the replacement rate.
gonzo41 3y ago
Don't worry, there's plenty of irresponsible people out there still. And the planet is thankful for a bit of steady decline in population.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  The planet doesn’t care either way. The question is what’s best for the humans - and those things or beings that humans value.

em-bee 3y ago

the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and there was always someone nearby to help and to show us how things are done. oh, and going with the theme of the article, great-grandpa from my wifes side was still around, but my son does not remember him now. and as my dad was the youngest of 7 kids, i just barely remember his parents.

rodgerd 3y ago
> the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  This retort is true of literally everything involved in raising kids. Substitute "parents" "preschool teachers" "sports coach" &c. for "grandparents" in the sentence and it's still true for the domain for the children. It's true that with grandparents you have a maximum of 4 to choose from, but you might not have more than 4 preschools to choose from either.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Arguably you can chose other teachers and coaches and daycare
    - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
      What about crappy parents?

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago

Yeah, same here. I don't think I was mature enough to have a kid at 22, apart from the fact that I was still studying, and when I started working I had low salary and needed to work long hours to fight for job stability in a competitive sector. However, it would likely have worked at 30, and reading through all this makes me think that it would have been better than waiting until 36 as I did. Easier said (especially in retrospective) than done, though.

ein0p 3y ago

As someone who had his first kid at 23, you grow up real quick once you become a parent. Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. Or to really understand their own parents for that matter.

ddsf 3y ago
I often see people settled into being more financially responsible, and it's good. But not in term of personality maturity.
doubled112 3y ago
I was 24 and still in college. This thread is full of people saying "I was a mess" or "I wasn't mature enough". When we found out we were pregnant, I was working at a gas station, my off hours spent riding around in a truck with my friends yelling things at people walking by on the street for reactions. There's maturity and stability. Now I'm "ahead" of many of those friends because I knew I needed to hurry up and get things done. Didn't have time to rage quit jobs. Didn't have time to sit around and make less because it was easier. So I agree with you. It tells me a lot about being responsible and mature. Most won't until they have to, and a kid has that effect.
- ein0p 3y ago
  What really cracks me up is that people have this expectation that they’ll ever be “ready” to have kids. Not going to happen. The whole thing reminds me of the first few minutes of “Idiocracy”.
digging 3y ago
> Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. This is my favorite of the lies parents tell, it's so obviously nonsensical
- ein0p 3y ago
  I take it you don't have kids.