5 ms·
It cannot be overstated that the actual study data without exception points to the opposite conclusion, that pythagorean intervals (mathematical ratios) are in
by srcreigh 3y ago
It cannot be overstated that the actual study data without exception points to the opposite conclusion, that pythagorean intervals (mathematical ratios) are in fact what we prefer.
Study link: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z
Start with figure 3. Non-musicians generally favour pythagorian style harmonic ratios, while trained musicians tend to prefer equal temperament.
Each of the following intervals in the data confirm this:
- The pythagorian major 3rd ratio 5/4 is slightly flat compared to 5 semitones. Non-musicians nailed it, musicians prefer the sharp ET version.
- The range from 10-11 semitones is rated relatively high by non-musicians. This range includes the 7th harmonic, 7/4
- Even the 11th harmonic, taking place between 6(tritone) and 7(perfect fifth) is rated highly by non-musicians relatively to musicians.
- The "9" major 2nd octave, 9/4 JI, aka 14 semitones, is tuned more perfectly by non musicians (9/4) compared to musicians
Later the authors experiment with a artificial gong style instrument (fig 5). However its harmonics are remarkably close to several standard pythagorean ratios. You see 1.52f0 (slightly sharp perfect 5th 3/2); 3.46f0 (slightly flat harmonic 7th 7/4); 3.92f0 (slightly flat double octave 4/1). These harmonics are so close to a guitar or piano or human voice, it can't really even be considered inharmonic at all.
With this instrument, you get, yet again, more pythagorean intervals:
- sharp major 2nd, 9/8 ratio (makes sense; started with a sharp 3/2 and 9/8 is just (3/2)^2 modulo octaves).
- People still correctly tune the major 3rd 5/4 ratio (slightly less than 5 semitones) even without a 5th harmonic. bonkers
- Sharp 5th, which makes sense as the harmonic is 1.52f0 instead of 1.5f0
- Heavily emphasized harmonic 7th interval between 9 and 10 semitones
Later, the authors experiment with various mis-tunings of the pythagorean intervals (Fig 8). The most highly rated intervals are slightly sharp or flat from JI. This is evidence for JI intervals being pleasing--slightly sharp or flat creates a pleasing rhythm of Just harmony. It's like just harmony but better.
In conclusion, essentially every plot in the study points towards pythagorean, mathematically tuned harmony being more pleasing. Even in surprising ways. I could not find a single data point indicating otherwise, except for indoctrination of musicians towards ET leading to things like preferring sharp major 3rds and not recognizing the harmonic 7th interval.
- pclmulqdq 3y agoIt's very possible that the averages over the population we see in the paper reflect a gradient of musical experience rather than an abstract notion of "pleasantness." Many trained musicians I know with a great ear have a very hard time with non-ET fifths and thirds, even knowing that ET is a grand compromise (all tunings are). We must learn through exposure - and admonitions from teachers to have better intonation - that ET is correct and everything else is wrong. I also have to say that the idea of making "pleasant" intervals is a bit reductive to begin with: unequal temperament tunings in modern use are often chosen to give a piece a particular "color" regardless of how "pleasant" the intervals are in a vacuum.
- srcreigh 3y agoAgreed. Western musicians have a sort of indoctrination/familiarity towards ET, leaving the untrained folks better equipped to recognize Just intoned harmony. Also agreed re: pleasant intervals. My favourite example (which I have posted before) is this Mozart piece in 6th comma meantone. The back and forth between dissonance and pure harmonic resolution with great 3rds tuning is extraordinary. Anyone, give it one listen, you will be convinced. https://youtu.be/lzsEdK48CDY?si=rtBE-M0cCRQsDHNx&t=700 https://youtu.be/lzsEdK48CDY?si=rtBE-M0cCRQsDHNx&t=700 (Note the last, cheerful section was added after mozart's death.)
- pclmulqdq 3y agoI don't personally like the tuning on that - it feels a little too rough. However, many classical and even romantic-period composers had pianos tuned in Werckmeister, Kirnberger, or Vallotti temperaments, which had toned-down versions of similar dissonances you hear here (similar to the second rendition of the Mozart in that video).
- anigbrowl 3y agoQuite, and this has been known for years - any good ethnomusicology textbook addresses it chapter 1. Equal temperament and 'western harmony' are not all that.
- 3y ago