4 ms·

FWIW, I believe Kahneman resisted being categorized as an economist and preferred to think of himself as a psychologist.

by bumby 3y ago

dredmorbius 3y ago
There's a school of thought which holds that economics is a subset of psychology. I'd thought that this was reflected in some university departmental organisation, with M.I.T. being the one that came to mind. Despite there being a behavioural economics section there, though, so far as I'm aware Economics remains its own department. Kahneman's training and primary focus were both in psychology, but he was awarded the somewhat problematic Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. Multi-discipliniarity is in fact A Thing. Princeton bio: Daniel Kahneman is Professor of Psychology and Public Affairs Emeritus at the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs.... He has been the recipient of many awards, among them the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association (1982) and the Grawemeyer Prize (2002), both jointly with Amos Tversky, the Warren Medal of the Society of Experimental Psychologists (1995), the Hilgard Award for Career Contributions to General Psychology (1995), the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences (2002), the Lifetime Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association (2007), and the Presidential Medal of Freedom (2013). <https://kahneman.scholar.princeton.edu/ https://kahneman.scholar.princeton.edu/>
- foobiekr 3y ago
  Psychology could legitimately be considered a subset of economics.
  - alephknoll 3y ago
    If economics is a subset of psychology and psychology is a subset of economics, then economics equals psychology.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Is all human behaviour mercantile? The counterargument to the proposition in my earlier post would be to show that there is economic activity which relies on nonhuman behaviours. Automated financial trading or AI-based management systems (financial, corporate, industrial, governmental, etc.) might be possible exceptions, which raises further interesting questions.
    - tomrod 3y ago
      Economics since the mid 1900s hasn't been solely focused on mercantilism, but rather has had a significant focus on choice under various conditions, assumptions, and constraints. Game theory, mechanism design, contract and auction deisgn, and focus on individual versus collective behavior (e.g Arrow's Impossibility Theorem) have strong overlap with psychology. Though there is certainly daylight: my subfields of Industrial Organization and Computational eocnomics are way more related to quantitative finance, ML, and similar than voting behavior.
      - dredmorbius 3y ago
        Mercantile != mercantilism. The thrust of my pithy question was whether or not the principle subjects of economics --- of human production, consumption, and exchange --- where the sum total of all psychological inquiry. I suspect not.
        PeterisP 3y ago
        As the parent post tried to substantiate, for current economics the principle subjects really are not limited to human production, consumption and exchange, but also include subfields that focus on all choices that humans make - things like revealed preferences vs expressed preferences or risk aversion are a focus of economics, but they apply to consumption just as well as for other choices people make about e.g. intimate relations or choice of hobbies or music.
        dredmorbius 3y ago
        Yes, and I'd still argue that psychology's span of breadth is more encompassing. Note that I both studied economics at uni, and have spent considerable time since exploring both the history and current branches of the field. I'm rather familiar with it and my criticisms are rather based on that familiarity. The relevant questions are: 1. Which field of study encompasses more elements, economics or psychology? 2. Are these fields intersecting, and if so, is one a proper subset of the other or not? In a Venn diagram sense, how do the sets relate? Psychology includes numerous branches, fields, divisions, and foci, of which choice determination is only a very small element. See for example: <https://www.simplypsychology.org/branches-of-psychology.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/branches-of-psychology.html> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#Major_schools_of_thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#Major_schools_of_th...> (specifically schools of thought). Contrast branches of economics. Numerous, but ... somewhat less expansive as compared with psychology: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_economics#Branches_of_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_economics#Branches_...> Note that psychology, economics, sociology, political science, and anthropology all emerged out of what had previously been moral philsophy largely during the 19th century. Divisions and focus are somewhat arbitrary and strongly influenced by institutions and other pressures --- in the case of economics, political policy influences are notoriously strong, though other disciplines aren't immune from same. But if I had to matryoshka the two, I'd nest econ within psych.
- bumby 3y ago
  I may be misremembering here (or perhaps projecting), but I vaguely remember the issue being that economics tried to portray itself as too much of a "hard science" for Khaneman's liking.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    As someone trained in the study, I'd tend to agree with him.
- adastra22 3y ago
  Psychology is the study of the behavior of singular minds. Economics is the study the behavior of many minds acting independently.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Group psychologists have entered the chat. <https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=psychology+of+groups https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=psychology+of+groups> <https://opened.tesu.edu/introsocialpsychology/chapter/the-psychology-of-groups/ https://opened.tesu.edu/introsocialpsychology/chapter/the-ps...> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychology%20of%20groups&btnG=Search&as_sdt=800000000001&as_sdtp=on https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychology%20of%20group...>
  - bumby 3y ago
    To the multi-disciplinary point above, I think Kahneman's economic work is largely categorized as behavioral economics. That's not divorced from group dynamics, as it tries to understand how social preferences, social utility, and other psychological factors shape strategic decision-making behavior.
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      Good points. There's also the fact that the economics profession, and the Economics Nobel committee, have both been making pains to include a broader set of dynamics under their scope. Among the more notably economic polymaths prior to Kahneman was Herbert A. Simon, possibly better known to the HN crowd for his pioneering work in AI and computer science, though he also worked in economics and, again, psychology. He was awarded the 1967 Nobel in economics on decision-making in the context of bounded rationality.

FWIW, I believe Kahneman resisted being categorized as an economist and preferred to think of himself as a psychologist.

by bumby 3y ago

FWIW, I believe Kahneman resisted being categorized as an economist and preferred to think of himself as a psychologist.

dredmorbius 3y ago

There's a school of thought which holds that economics is a subset of psychology. I'd thought that this was reflected in some university departmental organisation, with M.I.T. being the one that came to mind. Despite there being a behavioural economics section there, though, so far as I'm aware Economics remains its own department. Kahneman's training and primary focus were both in psychology, but he was awarded the somewhat problematic Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. Multi-discipliniarity is in fact A Thing. Princeton bio: Daniel Kahneman is Professor of Psychology and Public Affairs Emeritus at the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs.... He has been the recipient of many awards, among them the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association (1982) and the Grawemeyer Prize (2002), both jointly with Amos Tversky, the Warren Medal of the Society of Experimental Psychologists (1995), the Hilgard Award for Career Contributions to General Psychology (1995), the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences (2002), the Lifetime Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association (2007), and the Presidential Medal of Freedom (2013). <https://kahneman.scholar.princeton.edu/ https://kahneman.scholar.princeton.edu/>

foobiekr 3y ago
Psychology could legitimately be considered a subset of economics.
- alephknoll 3y ago
  If economics is a subset of psychology and psychology is a subset of economics, then economics equals psychology.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Is all human behaviour mercantile? The counterargument to the proposition in my earlier post would be to show that there is economic activity which relies on nonhuman behaviours. Automated financial trading or AI-based management systems (financial, corporate, industrial, governmental, etc.) might be possible exceptions, which raises further interesting questions.
  - tomrod 3y ago
    Economics since the mid 1900s hasn't been solely focused on mercantilism, but rather has had a significant focus on choice under various conditions, assumptions, and constraints. Game theory, mechanism design, contract and auction deisgn, and focus on individual versus collective behavior (e.g Arrow's Impossibility Theorem) have strong overlap with psychology. Though there is certainly daylight: my subfields of Industrial Organization and Computational eocnomics are way more related to quantitative finance, ML, and similar than voting behavior.
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      Mercantile != mercantilism. The thrust of my pithy question was whether or not the principle subjects of economics --- of human production, consumption, and exchange --- where the sum total of all psychological inquiry. I suspect not.
      - PeterisP 3y ago
        As the parent post tried to substantiate, for current economics the principle subjects really are not limited to human production, consumption and exchange, but also include subfields that focus on all choices that humans make - things like revealed preferences vs expressed preferences or risk aversion are a focus of economics, but they apply to consumption just as well as for other choices people make about e.g. intimate relations or choice of hobbies or music.
        dredmorbius 3y ago
        Yes, and I'd still argue that psychology's span of breadth is more encompassing. Note that I both studied economics at uni, and have spent considerable time since exploring both the history and current branches of the field. I'm rather familiar with it and my criticisms are rather based on that familiarity. The relevant questions are: 1. Which field of study encompasses more elements, economics or psychology? 2. Are these fields intersecting, and if so, is one a proper subset of the other or not? In a Venn diagram sense, how do the sets relate? Psychology includes numerous branches, fields, divisions, and foci, of which choice determination is only a very small element. See for example: <https://www.simplypsychology.org/branches-of-psychology.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/branches-of-psychology.html> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#Major_schools_of_thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#Major_schools_of_th...> (specifically schools of thought). Contrast branches of economics. Numerous, but ... somewhat less expansive as compared with psychology: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_economics#Branches_of_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_economics#Branches_...> Note that psychology, economics, sociology, political science, and anthropology all emerged out of what had previously been moral philsophy largely during the 19th century. Divisions and focus are somewhat arbitrary and strongly influenced by institutions and other pressures --- in the case of economics, political policy influences are notoriously strong, though other disciplines aren't immune from same. But if I had to matryoshka the two, I'd nest econ within psych.
bumby 3y ago
I may be misremembering here (or perhaps projecting), but I vaguely remember the issue being that economics tried to portray itself as too much of a "hard science" for Khaneman's liking.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  As someone trained in the study, I'd tend to agree with him.
adastra22 3y ago
Psychology is the study of the behavior of singular minds. Economics is the study the behavior of many minds acting independently.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Group psychologists have entered the chat. <https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=psychology+of+groups https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=psychology+of+groups> <https://opened.tesu.edu/introsocialpsychology/chapter/the-psychology-of-groups/ https://opened.tesu.edu/introsocialpsychology/chapter/the-ps...> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychology%20of%20groups&btnG=Search&as_sdt=800000000001&as_sdtp=on https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychology%20of%20group...>
- bumby 3y ago
  To the multi-disciplinary point above, I think Kahneman's economic work is largely categorized as behavioral economics. That's not divorced from group dynamics, as it tries to understand how social preferences, social utility, and other psychological factors shape strategic decision-making behavior.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Good points. There's also the fact that the economics profession, and the Economics Nobel committee, have both been making pains to include a broader set of dynamics under their scope. Among the more notably economic polymaths prior to Kahneman was Herbert A. Simon, possibly better known to the HN crowd for his pioneering work in AI and computer science, though he also worked in economics and, again, psychology. He was awarded the 1967 Nobel in economics on decision-making in the context of bounded rationality.