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> But that doesn't mean that sleep apnea makes people gain weight I gather that you are unaware of how sleep apnea causes poor sleep, which in turn causes insu

> But that doesn't mean that sleep apnea makes people gain weight I gather that you are unaware of how sleep apnea causes poor sleep, which in turn causes insulin resistance, which in turn causes an elevated production of insulin, which in turn forces glucose into your adipose tissue, which in turn makes the rest of your tissues starved for energy, which in turn causes you to be hungrier, overeat and gain weight. This is an oversimplification, of course, as there are hormones other than insulin and cortisol involved in the complex process of insulin resistance, but it is at least a starting point that goes beyond the useless truism that "people gain weight because they overeat". Of course they do, but the mechanisms why they are hungrier than they need to be are crucial if you want to address the problem, because in the long run every human being with free access to food will eat precisely until they are no longer hungry, whether or not they are metabolically healthy or not.

jonhohle 3y ago
But that’s not what he’s saying. Being hungry does not cause you to eat. Regardless of hunger, a caloric deficit will result in weight loss. There definitely is the issue of how to reliably maintain a caloric deficit when your body is screaming at you to eat more, but the underlying mechanism is much simpler. At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation. Eating 2,000 calories of oranges (45) is going to be a lot harder than 2,000 calories of fast food hamburgers (2).
- david-gpu 3y ago
  The problem isn't that CICO isn't true, it's that it's not useful. It can't even explain why fat people are still hungry when they have enough calories stored in their bodies to last them for months. > Being hungry does not cause you to eat Yes, it does. That's why people eat: to alleviate hunger. You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. Metabolically healthy people aren't slim by being hungry all the time. They eat to satiety, and they are lucky enough that their satiety signalling is still working well enough. If you make them chronically hyperinsulinemic, they will be hungrier and they will gain weight -- it happens in humans and in animal models when allowed to eat ad libitum. > At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation As long as you are hyperinsulinemic, you will store a portion of the energy you consume in your adipose tissue, because that is one of the major effects of insulin in the body. The remaining energy left in you will not be sufficient to supply the energy needs of your body, and as a result you will be cold, tired and hungry.*
  - dgfitz 3y ago
    > Yes, it does. That's why people eat: to alleviate hunger. You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. If this is the premise of your argument, it is flawed. You have no idea if “eventually” happens to everyone. You’re making a wildly strange assumption.
    - david-gpu 3y ago
      >> You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. > You have no idea if “eventually” happens to everyone Have you tried? Are you willing to try? How many people do you know that intentionally remain hungry every day for more than a couple of years, while otherwise having free access to food? Any weight loss advice that does not adequately address hunger and satiety is naive to the point of ridicule. And any person who advises others to address their weight by telling them to be hungry in perpetuity hasn't given much thought to what they are asking for.
      - dgfitz 3y ago
        Yeah. Turns out when you eat less your stomach shrinks and you need less food to feel satiated. What are you on about? You’re severely incorrect.
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    >> Being hungry does not cause you to eat > Yes, it does. Nearly 1:10 people in the world are chronically hungry. Being hungry has no impact on their ability to eat. Likewise, those with access to food eat when not hungry and (believe it or not) may not eat when hungry. I really think you’re missing the point, though. We have a host of signals in our body that can misfire due to various conditions and people cope with them. Hunger is no different and many of us have spent months ignoring it to our own benefit (and some to their own peril). Caloric intake in excess of expense causes weight gain. What factors lead to that excess do not. There are certainly those with a variety of issues that make caloric deficit difficult. Fortunately, that’s not most people.

jonhohle 3y ago

But that’s not what he’s saying. Being hungry does not cause you to eat. Regardless of hunger, a caloric deficit will result in weight loss. There definitely is the issue of how to reliably maintain a caloric deficit when your body is screaming at you to eat more, but the underlying mechanism is much simpler. At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation. Eating 2,000 calories of oranges (45) is going to be a lot harder than 2,000 calories of fast food hamburgers (2).

david-gpu 3y ago
The problem isn't that CICO isn't true, it's that it's not useful. It can't even explain why fat people are still hungry when they have enough calories stored in their bodies to last them for months. > Being hungry does not cause you to eat Yes, it does. That's why people eat: to alleviate hunger. You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. Metabolically healthy people aren't slim by being hungry all the time. They eat to satiety, and they are lucky enough that their satiety signalling is still working well enough. If you make them chronically hyperinsulinemic, they will be hungrier and they will gain weight -- it happens in humans and in animal models when allowed to eat ad libitum. > At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation As long as you are hyperinsulinemic, you will store a portion of the energy you consume in your adipose tissue, because that is one of the major effects of insulin in the body. The remaining energy left in you will not be sufficient to supply the energy needs of your body, and as a result you will be cold, tired and hungry.*
- dgfitz 3y ago
  > Yes, it does. That's why people eat: to alleviate hunger. You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. If this is the premise of your argument, it is flawed. You have no idea if “eventually” happens to everyone. You’re making a wildly strange assumption.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    >> You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. > You have no idea if “eventually” happens to everyone Have you tried? Are you willing to try? How many people do you know that intentionally remain hungry every day for more than a couple of years, while otherwise having free access to food? Any weight loss advice that does not adequately address hunger and satiety is naive to the point of ridicule. And any person who advises others to address their weight by telling them to be hungry in perpetuity hasn't given much thought to what they are asking for.
    - dgfitz 3y ago
      Yeah. Turns out when you eat less your stomach shrinks and you need less food to feel satiated. What are you on about? You’re severely incorrect.
- jonhohle 3y ago
  >> Being hungry does not cause you to eat > Yes, it does. Nearly 1:10 people in the world are chronically hungry. Being hungry has no impact on their ability to eat. Likewise, those with access to food eat when not hungry and (believe it or not) may not eat when hungry. I really think you’re missing the point, though. We have a host of signals in our body that can misfire due to various conditions and people cope with them. Hunger is no different and many of us have spent months ignoring it to our own benefit (and some to their own peril). Caloric intake in excess of expense causes weight gain. What factors lead to that excess do not. There are certainly those with a variety of issues that make caloric deficit difficult. Fortunately, that’s not most people.